An Author Interview from Books At a Glance
You know the story of Jonah and the whale, but do you know what it’s actually all about?
I’m Fred Zaspel, editor here at Books At a Glance, and that’s our topic today. We’re talking to Anthony Carter about his thoroughly enjoyable and insightful new book, Running from Mercy: Jonah and the Surprising Story of God’s Unstoppable Grace.
Tony, welcome, and thanks for talking to us today.
Carter:
Thanks, Fred, I appreciate the invite.
Zaspel:
First off, since this is your first time with us, and for any of our listeners who may like to get further acquainted, tell us where you are and about the church where you are pastor.
Carter:
We’re in the greater Atlanta area; it’s called Eastpoint, Georgia. If you’ve ever been to Atlanta or through Atlanta’s airport, which most people have, we’re right there at the airport. So that gives you a little perspective of where we are. The church is in Eastpoint; it’s called Eastpoint Church and I’ve had the privilege and honor of serving as lead pastor there for these past ten years. And the church is actually ten years old.
Zaspel:
So, you founded the church? You planted it?
Carter:
Yes, along with a few other families, we planted the church about ten years ago.
Zaspel:
Okay, just briefly, who was Jonah, when did he live, and what was the mission God gave him?
Carter:
Jonah was a prophet of God and most people who are familiar the Bible in any sense are familiar with Jonah. It’s one of those names and stories that just kind of just pop off from the Scriptures at you. Whether you’re familiar with it from Sunday school or if you’re familiar with it from animation or movies or storytelling, most people are familiar with the prophet Jonah. He was a prophet of God, called to prophesy in Israel. Later on, he was called to prophesy to not only his fellow kinsmen the Israelites, but also to prophesy to those who would be considered Israel’s enemies, namely the Ninevites. Which is where the prophecy of Jonah actually gets its storyline.
Zaspel:
When we think of the book of Jonah we typically think first of the whale. But you make a great remark about this. You say, “To say Jonah is about a fish is to say Romeo and Juliet is about a school yard crush.” So, how does the title “Jonah and the Whale” miss the point, and just what is the book of Jonah all about?
Carter:
There’s no doubt that there is a dramatic account in the prophecy of Jonah concerning this great fish that swallows Jonah up; and it is easy to get caught up in the drama that is in the fish. But as one writer has said, if you get caught up in the drama that goes on inside the fish, you will miss the drama that goes on inside of Jonah. And that’s really what it is about. That’s really what the account is about – it is about the drama that is occurring in the heart of Jonah, that points us to the grand drama that our God is working out throughout redemptive history, which is the greatness of his grace and mercy towards sinners. Indeed, there was a great fish, but that great fish pales in the comparison to the great God and his great grace that the story of Jonah is communicating to us.
Zaspel:
In your first chapter you begin with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, and I thought your observation here is very important. Tell us why you went to Genesis, and describe the message of Jonah for us in whole Bible perspective?
Carter:
I think the whole storyline of the Bible really gets its seed form there in the account of Adam and Eve and their Fall from grace in the Garden of Eden. It is a dramatic event and it is one on a grand cosmic scale in which they rebel against God and his goodness. And in fact, it is arguably the greatest act of treason that creation has ever seen. But what we see there is not only this great rebellion, but we see an even greater display of God’s grace and mercy in that he came to Adam and Eve. And he came to Adam and Eve with a purpose and with a plan of providing a way and indeed a person for them to come back to him. I think that’s the grand message of the Scriptures. God coming to sinners and providing a plan and a person for them to come back to him. And that becomes the message of Jonah. As that whole plan of God is being worked out in Scripture, Jonah becomes an important element in that story, as God is working through Jonah the message of sinners rebelling and God coming to sinners and providing a plan and a person for them to come back to him.
Zaspel:
Tell us more why Nineveh is significant in Jonah’s reluctance, and explain your title: Running from Mercy.
Carter:
Nineveh was as grand a city in Jonah’s time as any city would be in ours. It would be that city that only needed one name to describe it, like London or New York or Tokyo. You would just need to say that name and you would know what city people were referring to and where that city was. And Nineveh was that; it was a great city, full of great wonders and even great achievements. But it was also a city known for its decadence and for the greatness of its sin. The Bible tells us that the greatness of Nineveh’s sin had come up before the Lord and the Lord was well aware of it. And Jonah, being called to go to Nineveh, was reluctant, very much for that purpose. One, because it was a great city full of sinners; but not just sinners, but sinners who were at the time the enemy of Israel, the antagonist, if you will, of the story of the Israelites at that time. Jonah was reluctant to go to them because as far as he was concerned, they were not just enemies, but they were terrorists.
The idea of Running from Mercy, the title, really gets the idea that Jonah, in running from the calling that the Lord had put upon him, was indeed running from the very mercy of God that God was seeking to communicate not only to him, but also to others through him. And indeed, in running from mercy, what Jonah actually found out is that no matter how far you run or how long you run, you don’t help run the mercy of God. And God’s mercy came running to him and he found also that that mercy extended out to the Ninevites and the Gentiles as well.
Zaspel:
Pastors have often made their way through Jonah in four sermons, one for each chapter. Some have taken a little longer, as you do in your book. Keeping an eye on the book’s leading theme, track out for us just briefly the major steps in the story.
Carter:
Yes. It’s, like you said, a short account – four brief chapters. I’ve preached through it, and at times, I’ve read the whole book of Jonah to begin a sermon series. It’s captivating to tell, it is fast paced, it is fast-moving, with a lot of depth to the story. But it begins with the call of God upon the prophet to go and preach God’s grace and mercy to a wayward and sinful people. Jonah is reluctant to do it because of the people to whom God is calling him to preach. They were not the nicest of neighbors. In fact, in our terms they would be considered a terrorist state. And Jonah was not interested in seeing the terrorists redeemed. He would rather see the terrorists condemned.
So, rather than heed the call of God, Jonah goes down away from the will of God and he begins a trek downward. As we learned in our own lives that anytime we move away from God it is a movement down. Instead of going to Nineveh he goes down into a ship that eventually takes him down into the depths of the sea and takes him down into the belly of a fish that takes him down, even down into Sheol, down into the grave.
But then it is down at those depths that the mercy of God comes running to him, as it were, that the mercy of God comes to him and his eyes are opened and he realizes there at the bottom of the sea, at the bottom of the belly of this fish, that he realizes that salvation is of the Lord. And that the God who was gracious to him is gracious to all who call upon him. And there through his repentance and trust again in the Lord, the Lord raises him up from the depths of the grave. And, again, the word of God comes to Jonah a second time, which is remarkable in itself. The idea there is that the word of God that comes the second time, is no different than the word of God that came the first time, because God’s word doesn’t change. But there is something that has changed – Jonah has changed. And that’s what the word of God does when it comes to us, it changes us and it causes us to see that we are sinners and that God is a big and gracious God. And down he goes and he preaches to the Ninevites and the word of God has the prescribed effect that Jonah knew it would have and that God ordained that it would have. The Ninevites repent of their sins, they come to faith and there’s a great revival that breaks out.
But, unfortunately, like the elder brother in the parable of the prodigal son, Jonah is resentful of God’s mercy to others. This reminds us that Jonah failed to see that he was no more worthy of God’s grace than the Ninevites were. In fact, the same grace that saved him is the grace that God offered to the Ninevites. Jonah resented this and that resentment caused him to resent his calling and ultimately to resent God’s mercy. But even in that, God’s mercy was still great to Jonah in that God provided for Jonah, even in Jonah’s resentment, a message that still resounds to us today that God is greater than all of our circumstances and that his purposes will stand, despite our best efforts to the contrary. And that becomes the great message of the book of Jonah.
Zaspel:
Point out for us how Jonah anticipates the gospel and points to Jesus.
Carter:
Yes. The message of the Scriptures, from Genesis to Revelation, is a message of God’s gracious pursuit of sinners. And that message ultimately finds its culmination in the person and work of Jesus Christ through his death, burial, and resurrection. All of the stories in the Old Testament, all of the accounts of God’s interactions in dealing with his people point to that grand revelation of Jesus Christ. And Jonah is no different. When Jonah moves away from God’s will and refuses to obey God’s will, he goes down into the depths, down into the depths of the grave. And yet it is there that we are reminded that, as Jonah went down, God came in pursuit of him, as he always does in pursuit of sinners. The greatest pursuit of all was him coming into the world in the person of Jesus Christ, and at the cross demonstrating that the greatest pursuit of all is Christ in pursuit of sinners and saving them through his own sacrifice.
Jonah, the Bible says, was down in the whale three days and three nights, and Jesus uses that imagery to foretell of his own death on the cross and indeed, going down into the grave three days and three nights. But as God raised Jonah out of that whale, so God also raised Jesus out of the grave, reminding us, as he reminded Jonah, that salvation is of the Lord. And that God is willing and able to save all those who come unto him. And that salvation has been and always will be ultimately through the coming and the person and the work of Jesus Christ in his gracious sacrifice for sinners.
Zaspel:
Having preached through Jonah yourself, is there any particular counsel you would like to give preachers?
Carter:
Yes. The first thing that I would counsel them is to familiarize yourself with the story over and over again. Read it through several times. Read it through with several different translations. It is a powerful story that is nuanced in so many ways. It is so easy to get caught up in the drama that is going on around Jonah and neglect the drama that is actually happening in Jonah. Which actually points us to the greatness of God and his mercy and his goodness. I would just encourage preachers to pay attention to those themes of greatness. Pay attention to those themes of God’s appointments. And pay attention to the theme that salvation comes to Jonah; it comes to the sailors; it comes to the Ninevites; because ultimately it comes to all those who call upon the name of Jesus.
Zaspel:
We’re talking to Tony Carter, author of the new book, Running from Mercy: Jonah and the Surprising Story of God’s Unstoppable Grace. It’s an insightful and very engaging exposition of the story of Jonah in light of the big, Bible-long picture of God’s gracious pursuit of sinners. It’s a thoroughly enjoyable read for any Christian and a stimulating and helpful aid for the preacher. We’re happy to commend it, and Tony, it’s been great to have you with us – thanks so much.
Carter:
Well, thank you, Fred. I appreciate it, and I hope that your listeners would be encouraged to look at Jonah again after reading the book.
