An Author Interview from Books At a Glance
Costi Hinn has written a book that needed to be written. Having grown up on the inside of the Benny Hinn family, he has seen it all. And in his new book he tells it all, and he tells about the changes that have occurred in his own thinking and ministry.
I’m Fred Zaspel, Editor here at Books At a Glance, and Costi Hinn is with us today to talk about his new book, God, Greed, and the Prosperity Gospel: How Truth Overwhelms a Life Built on Lies.
Costi, welcome – great to have you with us.
Hinn:
Thanks for having me, Fred, good to be with you.
Zaspel:
First, just in broadest strokes, tell us what your book is all about and how it reflects your own life story.
Hinn:
For a couple of years now friends and some publishers have asked me to write on the topic because I grew up in the prosperity gospel and in the Hinn family and worked in it, preached it, benefited from it, and then I guess we can talk about it more, but I was what I would call, converted. Then I started doing ministry at a Bible church and preaching the true Gospel. Some people found that pretty interesting; they would ask me questions about my uncle and about the theology that prosperity preachers preach and that I lived. And so, I began to talk about it more and more, and get asked about it more and more. So, I wrote a few articles on my blog, and then eventually Christianity Today asked me to write a testimony piece, so I did and then it wasn’t long after Zondervan came along and said, “hey would you be willing to put this into a story, explain to people the background, and then teach them, biblically, the truth?” I jumped on board for that.
The book is about six or seven chapters, I would say, of every detail that people would want to know. It’s respectable; it’s not tabloid fare. But I take people behind-the-scenes and show them what we lived like, what we spent like, where the money came from, what we did with money, how we got money, and what it was like working in the center of it all.
Some of the questions I had, early, as a young man are in there and I take people on that journey, sometimes, when I was confused and not sure why things didn’t add up; but other times, too, when I would put questions aside because quite honestly, the lifestyle was lavish and amazing, so you tend to justify things. I go from there all the way through to when God transformed my life. I’ll share with people that moment, explain the role my wife played when I met her and a few other key people along the way that really blew up my belief system. And I mean that in a good way. God really used some amazing people. And then I’ll go into some chapters that talk about the abuse and the exploitation of the prosperity gospel. And then there will be a few other ones, too, they give us a biblical balance about health and wealth. Because there is this idea that God is always going to heal people if they have enough faith or if they give a big enough offering. And then I would say as equally destructive as the prosperity gospel is, so is the poverty gospel – this idea that all Christians should have no money and we should all be living on nothing. So people tend to go into asceticism, as well, on that side of things.
I try to give us a balanced view of health and wealth and then call people to be evangelistic in the last chapter. It’s called Reaching Those Caught in Deception, and we’ll talk about some biblical references that enable us to reach out to people. Because we all have friends and family caught up in this stuff, and it’s not pretty.
Zaspel:
One thing that I think is particularly fascinating about this is that you were converted to Christ actually while you were in pastoral ministry. That’s an unusual thing. It has happened throughout the history of the church, here and there, but it’s an unusual thing. I imagine that affected your own preaching, and it had to affect the church, the attendance, and everything, right?
Hinn:
Yeah. The church that I was a part of, and still am, actually right up until the next couple of weeks, I’ll be transitioning to a church that’s a sister church and so we are all unified, still in the same circle. But when we started the church, it was very kind of loosey-goosey, we were an atttractional model church where we were just trying to get people in the door. So it fit really well for a prosperity gospel kid to be in there. And all of a sudden, we got really tired, as a team, of constantly trying to put on a show and kind of fake it till you make it approach. So we decided to go through a book of the Bible, which was very weird. I mean, we would just preach topically about whatever, you know, sex and money and stuff.
Zaspel:
Actually, preach the Bible?
Hinn:
Yeah, so we’re like, alright, let’s go through the book of John. So we start going verse by verse, and guys start getting books, of course, commentaries and things like that. So, I’m up and we’re in John 5:1-17, the healing at the pool of Bethesda, and I get thrown a commentary by our teaching pastor and it’s a commentary by John MacArthur. I did not know, at the time, much about him except that if you would have asked me, I would have said, that’s the guy who hates my uncle. And my uncle made a comment on TBN one time that he wanted to blow his head off with his Holy Spirit machine guns. So there was no love lost between MacArthur and my uncle.
I’m just trying to interpret the text properly; and I had been taught some strategy, like make observations, ask questions, interrogative questions of the text, etc. etc. The point, then, is to let the Bible speak, so I’m going, okay, I’ll let it speak and let’s see how this goes. So I’m studying that passage and I noticed right away that Jesus goes after one guy out of a multitude of sick people at the pool of Bethesda. I’m thinking, that’s weird, because you’re supposed to heal everybody, like what in the world? And then John records that he healed the man immediately. So that stuck out in my mind. And, looking back, hindsight is 20/20, I didn’t know big words so if you would have said, hey, that’s illumination, I would’ve said what are you talking about? But in the moment, I’m reading and it’s like flash points, like light bulbs in my mind. I circle the word immediately, and I remember thinking, wow, just with a command, “pick up your pallet, and walk,” the Lord heals the guy. And then the Pharisees come and question the man shortly after and they said, “who told you, you can pick up your pallet and walk? It’s Sabbath – what are you doing working?” And the man wasn’t able to really answer, and John records, it was because he didn’t know who Jesus was, Jesus had slipped away. And that really confused me, because I immediately thought, well, how did he get healed if he didn’t know who Jesus was? Because he couldn’t have had enough faith to get healed, he couldn’t have made any kind of a confession. This is weird, different, I had never seen the text this way. So, I reached over for the commentary and in God’s providence, John MacArthur, in the way that only MacArthur can, with that edge that he has over this type of topic, goes off in this paragraph and says, “here’s an example of God’s sovereign healing power in action. Jesus healed the man, not because of anything he did, but because of who Jesus was. He was a sovereign healer.” And I thought, wow, that’s amazing! So God is in complete control of healing and of all of that. And then Dr. MacArthur goes on to say that there is this lie, it’s a cruel lie, of faith healers today, that people who don’t get healed are guilty of negative confession, unbelief, a lack of faith, and that’s simply not true. God is sovereign in healing. Jesus is a sovereign healer.
And Fred, no exaggeration, in the same office I have today (I just moved out of it because I’m transitioning to our sister church) but literally last week, sitting in that same office I have today, I began to weep and I repented of my sin. It was like everything came flashing through, like a dam that had burst. The cracks in my theology finally gave way and I repented. I told the Lord I was sorry for all that I had ever done, taught, believed, bankrolled on, and I just wanted to know the truth. So that domino fell and I vowed to preach the gospel faithfully. And then more theological dominoes fell. Funny enough, I started being given books by friends who were more of the Reformed tradition and later on I ended up with the book on B.B. Warfield by a guy named Fred Zaspel. And here I began to fall in love with the Puritans, with Spurgeon, Luther, Calvin, of course, Zwingli, Knox, and then you move on into guys from Princeton like Warfield and others. And I was transformed – my life was changed! I thought, there’s this whole world out there of men who have given their lives to the truth of Scripture. There’s no shenanigans, no gimmickry, and they are good faithful men trying to serve the Lord faithfully. So I wanted to be like you guys and my eyes were opened. So I went to seminary and just began to follow faithful men and do what I was told by the elders and seek the Lord. So that’s kind of the whole picture in a nutshell.
Zaspel:
Just to be clear, and just as briefly as possible, what is this that we call the “prosperity gospel”? And where did it come from?
Hinn:
The prosperity gospel could be summarized in one simple statement that believing in Jesus Christ will make you happy, healthy, and wealthy. That’s the gospel – that Jesus didn’t just die to give you heaven, he died to give you heaven on earth and if you follow him you will have blessings. And those blessings aren’t eternal, like peace being reconciled to God. It’s the gospel plus. Those blessings are money, houses, job promotions, children that are all saved and obeying God. And anything you want, you just say, “in Jesus name, it’s mine.” And because Jesus died and in the atonement were all these wonderful blessings, prosperity gospel teaches, because he died you have access to all of those things and you get them now.
Zaspel:
Where did that come from?
Hinn:
Well, I would honestly say that if you go back to Genesis 3 and to a moment where…(both men laughing) you know where I’m going with this. God had given very clear instructions to Adam and Eve. God’s word, you could say, was very clear. And the serpent came along and essentially, if we were to paraphrase what he said, what did he say? He looked at Eve and said, “oh, did God really say that? No, you surely shall not die.” And he began to undermine the word of God. And what ended up happening? Man was led into sin. So, I reach back to the original sin, when Satan sought to undermine God’s word, that’s what the prosperity gospel does.
But, I know what you’re asking. The more modern form we could trace in its mainstream form. I would say looking at men like Oral Roberts. Looking at the likes of Catherine Kuhlman. I’m reaching, of course, a little more forward in time than maybe your Phineas Quimbys and New Thought theology. Early, early shades of New Ageism where if you think it, you can have it; Whatever you say, your words are out there with creative power. So, reaching forward, let’s just say there were some Evangelical preachers that grabbed onto this idea. Kenneth Hagan was another one. And these guys started teaching whatever you say, you can have. If you say, “in Jesus name,” it’s like abracadabra, it’ll appear. They took the Bible and twisted it up into a cocktail of sorts and began to serve that up. And people wanted it; they were ripe for it. Throughout the turmoil of world wars and mass exploitation and trouble in the world, people began looking to this new version or special version of Christianity, and they can have all the things that they craved and wanted. I look at Oral Roberts and his use of mass media, Catherine Kuhlman, some of these televangelists who came along and began to use radio for the first time. The message spread like wildfire. And now, the nice pastor, preaching the Gospel in his small rural church, had absolutely no shot of competing with the voices of prosperity preachers through the airwaves. And if you fast-forward through the 1900’s and follow the historical pattern, you get all the way to today to Joel Osteen, whose father actually was friends and a big fan of Kenneth Hagan, who mentored Kenneth Copeland, of course, who we see today. That’s all the circle that these preachers come from. And we were a part of that, very involved in it. We called Kenneth Hagan, Papa Hagan. Oral Roberts, my mother was a caretaker for him in the later years of his life. He laid hands on me as a young boy and prophesied over me. My sisters went to Oral Roberts University. I mean that’s the circle, and my world. I hope that kind of gives you a picture.
Zaspel:
What are the basic problems with the prosperity gospel as you see it? How it is it at odds with the biblical Gospel and the larger biblical teaching with regard to prosperity and healing – and poverty and sickness? Take your time here if you like – what about it is wrong, and what about it is dangerous?
Hinn:
First of all, the prosperity gospel teaches that your faith is a force. If you have faith, you can have whatever you want. But the Bible clearly teaches that faith is salvific. It’s not about temporal stuff; it’s about salvation from sin. We believe in Jesus Christ by faith, we confess him as Lord in faith. You think of passages like Ephesians 2:8-9, “for it is by grace through faith you’ve been saved, not as a result of works.” Faith is clearly salvific. The prosperity gospel takes faith and makes it about getting what you want. They do the same thing with confession. I’m thinking about 1 John 1:9, where John records, “if we confess our sin, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” That is biblical confession. If we believe in our heart and confess with our mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord we shall be saved. Confession in the Bible is, again, about confessing sin and confessing Christ as Lord. The prosperity gospel says, like Joel Osteen or somebody would teach, you should confess whatever you want. It’s back to kind of New Thought theology and the idea that whatever I confess, I possess. That’s something that many, many word of faith and prosperity gospel preachers have said before.
The other thing that it twists is the atonement. Christ, in his atonement was all about buying his people; it was all about paying for sin. And most of the rewards and the pleasures of the atonement are found in heaven. For example, a glorified body or treasure in heaven or eternity with Christ, no more death, no more sickness, no more pain, etc. those things are all things that the atonement unlocks. Well, the prosperity gospel says, no, Jesus didn’t just die for all of that, the atonement gives you health, wealth and happiness, now. So if you’re not experiencing it, you’re probably not saved. And now you have a soteriological issue.
Those would be some of the basics, just off the top of my head, that the prosperity gospel twists. You can go down that rabbit hole even further and find some more.
Zaspel:
I’ve always felt like the prosperity gospel teaches that, that if you’re faithful, you’ll be rich, and if you’re faithful you’ll be healthy and all of that. I’ve always felt like not only is it wrong, but it’s a particularly cruel doctrine because it’s not true and people are going to find and experience that it’s not true. And they’re going to be disillusioned, and possibly, very likely, even experiencing horrible doubts about, “what’s wrong with my faith? I thought Jesus had saved me, and if I’m saved why am I…” It’s a particularly cruel doctrine to heap, then, not only their suffering, but to heap guilt on top of the suffering, don’t you think?
Hinn:
Yes, absolutely! That was one of the things that was troubling. I went through a couple of years of biblical counseling, and often talked to my professors and to pastors because so much of what I experienced was confusing. I used to say things kind of off the top of my head, and I had very kind friends and pastors and mentors who would come along and say that’s not exactly true. And I would say what do you mean? And they would have to help me along and show me the Scriptures and teach me. But I would say that so many people I know coming out of this, unless they have a really solid church they find, or by God’s grace, somebody enters their life that teaches them, people are lost. They are confused, and many of them have shipwrecked faith because of the prosperity gospel.
Zaspel:
I’ve always been curious: how do prosperity gospel preachers handle the story of Job and his undeserved suffering, and not only that but the suffering of other faithful men (like even Paul), and the many passages that speak of suffering as Christians, and then the inevitability of eventual sickness and dying? Do they just ignore these altogether? Or do they have some particular spin?
Hinn:
Both. First, you ignore certain teachings like that, you don’t go there. You would talk about Paul’s boldness; you would not talk about his historical beheading. Or you would talk about Job in that God blessed him with double for his trouble. You know, if right now, you wanted me even off the cuff I could just do it from having done it for so many years. I’d play off that completely and say, “those of you going through trouble, those of you who lost jobs, those of you with prodigal children, God’s gonna give you double in Jesus name. Begin to believe by faith…” And it’s all that hoopla. That is what you live on. You ignore massive portions of Scripture and stick to what will sell the most. Now, I will say this – there’s also times, and my uncle did this one time. He said that when Job said that the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away, that Job was wrong. That’s a pretty big claim, when you start saying that a Holy Spirit divinely inspired book, literally breathed from God, the words of God, are wrong, you have to wrestle with that, too. That is one of the more outlandish methods that we used, as well, saying that God has given me a new revelation and here’s the truth, directly from the Lord.
Zaspel:
So, generally speaking, are prosperity gospel preachers knowing frauds?
Hinn:
I think it is a little bit of both. I’m reminded of Paul’s words in 2 Timothy 3:13, where he says that in the last days, evil men and imposters will go from bad to worse, “deceiving and being deceived.” I believe that there are many that are self-deceived; they really believe that what they’re doing is good and that they are anointed and that they are God’s gift to people. I also, from experience, know there were many times where we did things that were shady, wrong, unethical, un-biblical. And you kind of say sorry, or you say that you would do that differently, within circles that you are in. Now, I think, you and I would quantify that as remorse, not repentance. It’s, “hey, I probably should’ve done things a little bit differently, but thank you for God’s grace, I’m so glad that he is merciful. We are all sinners, nobody’s perfect, so I’ll do better next time.” And it could be something that is so outlandish that it would disqualify you from ministry; however, you just kind of use God’s grace. Which, I think goes back to what Paul said many times in the book of Romans that because grace abounds, we are not to sin all the more. That is something that we did, and so, to your point, it’s both deceiving and being deceived.
Zaspel:
What should we know about the supposed “healings” that mark the Benny Hinn crusades?
Hinn:
In my experience, I can’t speak for everything happening right now, this year, because I’m not allowed at too many of those, as you can imagine. But when I worked for the ministry, when I was involved in that world, you know, you have doctors that are paid to be at the crusades, on the front row, and they are “verifying” healings, and they are filling out reports. They are Christian doctors who are being paid a stipend to work that night and provide their services to people. Some of the doctors are volunteers and they are big supporters of the ministry. And so, you have a layer, right there, that ensures that people are getting the right report for the ministry credibility. And I’ll let you kind of fill in the gaps from there. Beyond that, you have many reports – this isn’t just me, so this isn’t just some disgruntled nephew. I love my family to pieces, I love my uncle, I love my father, I have no ax to grind, here – many other reports can confirm this. The wheelchairs being staged, people apparently losing their healing that they got on the platform and news cameras catching them back in their wheelchair or limping on their way out of the auditorium. And many, many other situations where small, unverifiable healings like ringing in the ears, or somebody saying their cancer disappeared, or they believe that their knee has been healed inside, things that you can’t verify – those make for great stories, and they make for great hype; but in the end, many, many reports over the years show that those healings are false or unverified, and they are not genuine. And I would say that the report from the ministry is that millions have been saved and healed – that’s just not true.
Zaspel:
I have a particular disdain for that. My dad used to have a saying, “when people commit fraud in the name of Jesus, they make Al Capone look like a Sunday school teacher.”
Hinn:
Your dad is spot on. I think he’s in good company because if you think back to the entire chapter of 2 Peter 2, Peter has strong words. He says they are like dogs returning to their vomit, they go back to their own ways over and over, he quotes a proverb. That’s strong words right there. Which is why we see prosperity gospel preachers appear to repent, and then they go back to it a few years later. That’s happened three times in my uncle’s ministry, and with others. I would say to your dad’s point, Jude says something like this, too, as well, but Peter strongly says that the utter gloomy darkness has been reserved forever. They have a reservation in the deepest, darkest, potentially the hottest parts of hell. God doesn’t take this stuff lightly. And so we want to pray, not only for those being deceived by these people, but I don’t know how everyone else feels about this, but I pray for my uncle often, because he is still a soul in my eyes. And I don’t think, if you’re a believer, you want to wish death on anyone or absolute, crushing judgment at the hands of Christ in the hottest parts of hell. That’s not fun. I don’t want that for him.
Zaspel:
That’s sobering.
You’ve mentioned how you came to doubt that the prosperity gospel was true while studying John 5. How was your wife a help in this process?
Hinn:
Yes. My wife is a linear thinker; she worked HR for years and she’s a sharp woman. Along the way, she was very skeptical, when she met me, about the prosperity gospel and all that stuff. She went to a “normal” church, a church that taught the Bible and there wasn’t a lot of gimmickry. And thankful, when we dated, she never really judged me or put me in the same category as my family, but she was questioning and critical sometimes of some of the things that went on. So, we get married, and one day we’re in a Lifeway store. This was not long after my sermon, and she said, “I want this Bible.” She had a 40% off coupon that Lifeway sometimes used to put out and she said, “I want this Bible. It’s pink and it’s a John MacArthur study Bible.” And I said, “oh, not this guy, again. Listen, he was helpful, sweetheart, with that commentary, but I’m pretty sure this is the guy that doesn’t believe in the Holy Spirit.” I wasn’t sure of everything, Fred, so I was quoting what I had heard. I said I don’t want that in my house because, at that time I still had shades of charismatic theology and I was very much a continuationist. I would say, “my uncle is crazy, but people still prophesy, and I think there are still apostles.” I would have been in that camp, still, because I didn’t know everything. And so I said, “no, this guy, I don’t want to go all the way there, sweetheart. He’s way over there. I don’t want to go there.” So, she puts her little foot down in Lifeway and we have a little marital spat, first year of marriage. And she says, “I’m getting this Bible.” And I said, “no, you’re not. You’re not going to pollute my unborn children with MacArthur’s theology.” So, the next thing you know, she just refuses to get off the topic and I said, “all right, fine, you can have that Bible, but I’m going to highlight everywhere that MacArthur is wrong and is grieving the Holy Spirit.” She’s like, “okay, deal.” So, about two weeks in, you can imagine who is sitting at the coffee table every morning for quiet time reading the pink MacArthur study Bible – it was me. I’m reading through this thing, and I’m seeing a man, whatever people’s opinion is on him, if you just take it at face value, I’m seeing a man who is interpreting Scripture with Scripture, who is illustrating from the Old Testament, who is making pretty clear arguments on a lot of very important doctrine. And I begin to sway, and think, all right, listen, I’m going to let the Bible speak on a lot of different issues and I’m just going to let things fall where they may. My wife was an encourager all along for me to study the word and not follow my family because it’s family. Not even follow MacArthur just because he’s MacArthur, but to study and follow God’s word because it’s God’s truth for his people. I’ve got a secret weapon in my house, and it’s my wife. I’m thankful for her encouragement. She’s been on a wild journey, watched me take this family through five years of academic seminary and work, church transitions, watching people leave by large numbers in the beginning when things changed and wondering if we’re going to be able to pay bills and do whatever. I mean, all the way through. And the word of God has been our anchor, so we are thankful.
Zaspel:
Okay, tell us what it is like inside the Benny Hinn family and empire. You make a point to highlight the lavish lifestyle, and people need to see it for what it is. What can you tell us?
Hinn:
They need to know that the way we live off their donations is the kind of lifestyle you see when you watch Netflix and watch those Mega Yachts shows, and those Best Hotels in the World shows. When you’re watching that just imagine poor people in Africa and India. Imagine your grandmother here in the South, giving her pension to us. And then imagine us staying in the Royal suite at the Burj Al Arab in Dubai. Twenty-five thousand dollars a night, brushed gold everywhere. Imagine me with an infinity pool at the Grand Resort Lagonissi in Greece. Looking out over the Aegean Sea, where Paul had sailed on some missionary journeys, and yet, here I am, living off your donations. And then imagine us gambling and having fun at the Hotel de Paris in the casino in Monte Carlo. And on, and on, and on, it goes. Flying in Gulfstream jets, shopping at Versace, shopping sprees on Rodeo Drive, ten thousand dollars watches, twenty thousand dollars suits, Ferraris, Bentleys, Beemers, Benzes, Hummers. That was my car of choice; I drove a big Hummer. That’s the life we were living. And then showing up to services, supposed to be preaching the Gospel; supposed to be preaching the whole counsel of God, including the bad news, the suffering, the trials, the challenges we’re going to face as believers; but instead, we promise people a life they will never have, for an offering that they can barely give, and then we go on and fly off, literally, into the sunset. That is the lifestyle. There’s a lot more in the book and I explain a few more things, there, but it is troubling and people need to wake up. I know that we’ve all heard that the prosperity gospel is bad. I know people watch the news reports, but I’m not sure if it’s hitting our hearts as much as it ought to and that’s what I want this book to be. I wanted to stir us up to reach people that are caught up in it and then call the people preaching it to repentance and hopefully see God do some incredible things.
Zaspel:
What is your relationship like with your family today?
Hinn:
My mom and dad have pulled away, extensively, from my uncle. My dad does not travel with his ministry anymore and that’s encouraging. I think there’s still some ground to take when it comes to my dad, but he and I have open dialogue now. For a couple of years there was not a lot of communication. My mother, to give you an idea, she just read Mark Devers book, Nine Marks of a Healthy Church. And she plowed through A.W. Pink’s Sovereignty of God and is making her way through some books that I have given her, and I’m excited. We have good conversations and she understands that there is quite a bit of things that have gone on. She has told me flat out, as has my dad, now, that they believe and agree that when I say my uncle Benny is a false teacher, that he is. So, as a family, it’s not that I want them to agree with me, I want them to come to a place of seeing that this is dangerous, and that way we can move to action and growth. That’s been encouraging, but uncle Benny is not happy with me. We haven’t seen each other since my grandmother’s funeral a few years ago. There’s very little, or no communication at all, and he believes that I am on my way to God’s judgment for touching the Lord’s anointed.
Zaspel:
Does he really believe that?
Hinn:
You know, I don’t know. He says he does. He uses David not touching Saul as an example. Of course, touch not the Lord’s anointed. My prayer, and I tell my wife this all the time, my prayer will be that one day, maybe in the end, as his life winds down, that he’ll finally say, “call for Costi,” and he and I can have a talk. Maybe, in the Lord’s goodness and grace, like the thief on the cross, his life will be winding down and he will say, “yes, it was all false; yes, I thought there were some things that were true; I went off course, and I need prayer, I need help, I want to end well.” That’s my prayer for my uncle. He’s blood and I love him.
Some family members have come out and others are saying that I’m touching the Lord’s anointed and I’m cursed.
Zaspel:
We’re talking to Costi Hinn, author of the new book, God, Greed, and the Prosperity Gospel: How Truth Overwhelms a Life Built on Lies. It’s a fascinating read, and we’re very happy to commend it. Check it out, and learn what the prosperity gospel is really all about.
Costi, thanks so much for telling your story, and thanks for talking to us about it today.
Hinn:
Thank you for your work and ministry, Fred, I appreciate it.
