An Author Interview from Books At a Glance
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Greetings! I’m Fred Zaspel, and welcome to another Author Interview here at Books At a Glance.
One of the wonderful advances in biblical studies that our generation has seen is the field of Biblical Theology (BT) as a distinct discipline. In the time since I was a young theological student back in the late 70s and in the last 20 or so years especially it has just exploded, and the literature keeps piling up. It is a rich, rewarding field of study that opens up the Bible to be understood on its own terms. Biblical Theology has definitely come of age, and this new book is certainly part of the proof. The title is, simply, 40 Questions about Biblical Theology. It is a team effort by Drs. Jason DeRouchie, Oren Martin, and Andy Naselli. All three authors are here to talk to us about it today.
Jason, Oren, Andy – welcome, and congratulations on your new book!
DeRouchie, Martin, Naselli:
Thank you so much, Fred.
Zaspel
I think it would be helpful first to have each of you introduce yourself so our listeners can identify your voices as you speak. If you would each tell us your name, where you teach, what you teach, and anything else of interest briefly that would help our listeners get to know you.
DeRouchie:
I serve as Research Professor of Old Testament and Biblical Theology at MidWestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Kansas City, MO.
Martin:
I am an Assistant Professor of Systematic Theology at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and Boyce College.
Naselli:
I teach Systematic Theology and New Testament at Bethlehem College and Seminary. I am one of the pastors at Bethlehem Baptist Church.
Zaspel:
When I first learned of it back in the late 70s, Biblical Theology was basically Systematic Theology confined to a given book of the Bible – what does Matthew teach about God, about Christ, about the Holy Spirit, about Salvation, about Last Things, and so on. As valuable as that kind of study is, that is not what we usually mean today when we talk about “Biblical Theology.” The discipline has grown beyond that.
So, let us begin with definitions: what is Biblical Theology (BT)? What are its various approaches or avenues of study? And how is it distinguished from other theological disciplines?
Naselli:
Question 1 in the book addresses this question. BT studies how the whole Bible progresses and climaxes in Christ organically on its own terms. There are other approaches, but that is our focus. It is a way of analyzing and synthesizing the whole Bible on its terms.
DeRouchie:
BT is a blend of redemptive-historical worldview shaping story canonical approach. We envision the discipline of BT that is for the sake of the church growing organically from the biblical text itself with Jesus at the center of the entire story of creation, redemption, and consummation.
Zaspel:
Given the progressive, linear orientation of Biblical Theology it becomes important to recognize the Bible’s Storyline. Sketch out that storyline for us in broad strokes, and then tease out at least a bit how Biblical Theology should give us a greater appreciation of Christ as the center and the climax of Scripture.
DeRouchie:
We focused on the storyline of the Bible throughout the book. It plays a central part in the development of BT.
I used KINGDOM as an acronym to explain the entire story of the Bible. From beginning to end, the trajectory of the Bible finds its ultimate goal in Jesus.
- Kickoff and rebellion
- Instrument of blessing
- Nation redeemed and commissioned
- Government in the land
- Dispersion and return
- Overlap of the ages with Christ’s work in the church age
- Mission accomplished with Christ’s return and consummation
This acronym helps us understand the story of the Bible as finding its ultimate goal in Christ.
Zaspel:
How does that work out in the Old Testament?
DeRouchie:
I approach the Old Testament in the Law, Prophets, and Writings structure that Jesus and the apostles had. It sets a context to show how God progressively unveils his promises through a series of covenants. This provides a context for saving grace to be operative. The hope of the gospel rings from the earliest chapters of Genesis.
There is a driving theme of the offspring of the woman through the line of Abraham that is worked out throughout the Old Testament. The storyline builds in that framework. The Old Covenant context shows the need for the Savior, Jesus Christ, overcoming sin. That is why the majority of the Old Testament is a dark story. That is how the entire story is framed pushing for this coming seed from Abraham tying back to the promised male offspring of the woman from Abraham and Judah.
The Old Covenant itself shows that the people are filled with brokenness and, thus, need a Savior. But the entire story presents a picture of the day of God’s preservation coming through the Day of the Lord.
Zaspel:
Oren, anything to chime in?
Oren:
We want to encourage our readers to understand the Bible in the framework in which we received it, so people see how everything points to Christ. That is how the Bible is given to us. KINGDOM is a great way to read it, though there are other ways, e.g., creation, fall, redemption, consummation. That is how Jesus, the apostles, and the NT writers understood it.
Zaspel:
Does the order of the canon have anything to do with it?
DeRouchie:
Jesus’ Bible was the OT in the order of the Law, Prophets, and Writings. Their arrangement was different than ours today. Jesus regularly referred to these writings, e.g., the Law and the Prophets. Within that framework, we must read the Bible in the order they did so we can understand their canon. The Law has priority in the OT and the Gospels in the NT. We must read the history of the covenant in light of the Law because the prophets point people back to the Law, the blessings and curses that Moses provides. Without understanding this larger covenantal understanding, we will not understand the OT. It is the same way in the NT.
The Gospels are central to understanding the entirety of the NT, such that without which, we will not understand the rest of the books, despite most of them coming out after Paul’s letters. The story of Christ and his passion shapes our understanding of the rest of the NT. Focusing on the Gospels also helps us keep the storyline in order the way it was meant to be received. This larger understanding will influence our larger understanding of BT. We will not grasp what God is trying to teach us if we do not understand the relationship of all the major events and peoples, keeping them in proper succession. The OT provides the foundation for what Jesus is fulfilling, and BT helps us understand the promises and fulfillment between what is found in the OT and in the NT.
For example, if we put the book of Ruth before the book of Psalms, as it used to be, and as I prefer, our reading of the canonical location of the book of Ruth shapes how we understand it. BT theological connections are made based how the canon is connected and the order in which we receive it.
Zaspel:
In a moment I want to ask you about the major types and themes of Scripture, but first talk to us about typology itself. Two things here: 1) What is typology rightly understood, and 2) How do we keep a check on over-active imaginations that sometimes seem to reduce typology to mere allegorical interpretation?
Naselli:
A type is an event, person, or institution in the Bible that is a pattern for others throughout the Bible, such that climax (the antitype) in Jesus. God designed these types to climax in Jesus. There are patterns/analogies, they are historical, there is foreshadowing, and there is escalation between the type and antitype of the climax in Jesus. We can observe patterns throughout the Bible. Even if the human authors were not entirely aware of the type and antitype, we see it looking at the entire canon.
DeRouchie:
Once the antitype comes, that does not mean we have no use for the type itself; the type is predictive and is clarifying, like the second exodus. The second exodus gives us clarity to understand the original exodus.
Zaspel:
So, how do we keep a check on typology instead of just jumping into allegory?
DeRouchie:
There always must be biblical warrant for the type and antitype, and we do not go outside of the Bible for types. We should be able to establish this to people in the church. We do not go outside of the Bible to establish such warrant.
Martin:
The canon makes typology clearly known. Typology is part of God’s revelation. The connections are tied to the text. There are historical and theological connections as they culminate in Christ and his work.
Zaspel:
Give us a quick sketch of the major types and themes that carry the biblical story.
Martin:
Persons, events, and institutions carry the story of the Bible, starting where the word “type” is used in the NT. Hebrews speaks of types and shadows. Building from there, we see many more in Adam, David, and Moses. For example, Adam is referred to as a type of Christ. There is much more building out from there in the NT from the OT. Jesus is the end of sacrificial system because he is the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.
Naselli:
When Jason DeRouchie and I used to teach BT together, we designed the course to do the sort of thing you are getting at. We spent a portion of the course tracing themes in the Bible. We looked at mystery, the Law, the people of God, exile, exodus, temple, wisdom, land, gospel, love, grace, holiness, mission, sin, evil, the serpent, glory of God, etc.
Zaspel:
These are obvious themes that the biblical writers themselves develop, not something we create using allegory.
DeRouchie:
Yes, that certainly picks up on what we used to do.
Zaspel:
It has long been noticed that in the last chapters of the book of Revelation John is thinking in terms of the first chapters of Genesis. How should that shape our understanding of the story?
Naselli:
It is helpful to look at the bookends of the Bible to see what connections are there. These two parts of the Bible link the entire story talking about the primary themes—God, man, sin, marriage, the church, the lamb, etc. Most of the big themes in the Bible are there in both Genesis and Revelation. Working carefully through Genesis 1-3 and Revelation 21-22 will show that several themes correlate and culminate between the two texts. There are so many connections: sin, God dwelling with his people, marriage, etc.
Zaspel:
Talk to us about the more disputed question of continuity and discontinuity between the Old and New Testaments. On the one hand we want to understand the Bible as a single, cohesive book; but on the other hand, we want to recognize the massive advance marked by the arrival of Christ, his accomplished work, and the inauguration of the new covenant. Is there a way to chart this out for us briefly?
Martin:
Peter Gentry’s and Steven Wellum’s book, Kingdom through Covenant (see our summary of some of its chapters here), can help us understand how to tie the continuity and discontinuity together. We have an entire chapter on this larger issue, in fact. The covenant forms an important motif in the entire Bible. Each of the covenant advances and moves the storyline of the Bible along. There are huge academic debates on all these issues.
I try to provide a framework of how different folks have agreed and disagreed on this question. It is important to note that despite the debates, we agree on so many things in Scripture. But the debate is real. Although the debate is not of primary importance, the debate is still important. That is why dispensationalists and covenant theologians continue to disagree on the nation of Israel. Gentry and Wellum’s book focuses on progressive covenantalism, of course. We try to provide a framework of how to understand these differences.
Zaspel:
Let’s talk about Biblical Theology and the local church pastor. How can a growing acquaintance with Biblical Theology enrich our preaching? What should we be looking for in our week-to-week study? And how can we most profitably improve our proficiency in this dimension of our pulpit work?
DeRouchie:
Helping people learn about BT will help us all slow down to take time to assess how the NT authors use the OT. We want to be people who proclaim the whole counsel of God, and BT helps us do that to show how the parts relate to the whole. It helps us understand our times even better because of all the promises in the OT that have now been disclosed in the NT in Christ that is now being made known. BT helps us do these things to help us read the entire Bible as Christian Scripture. BT helps us realize who Jesus is in his fulness.
Martin:
We have all served as pastors in local churches and currently do in our respective churches, and we believe that BT is for the people of God. We want to know what God has satisfied in Christ so we can know him better. If we preach sermons on the whole Bible and its parts, we can help people understand it better. This will help people make these connections as we present the bigger picture briefly. This helps us preach and teach the whole counsel of God in an intentional and creative way so they can be saved and satisfied in Christ. Some children’s books can help with this because they take this approach.
Zaspel:
I try to remind my students to keep in mind the larger context of the Bible when looking at a specific text. Exposition of a specific text also means looking to the larger context of the entire Bible. That helps people understand where a text fits in the storyline of the Bible.
Zaspel:
Before we sign off give us a brief overview of your book so our listeners can know what to expect – the five major sections and perhaps a word about each.
Naselli:
The five sections are:
- Part 1: Defining Biblical Theology
- Part 2: Exploring Method in Biblical Theology
- Part 3: Illustrating Biblical Theology: Tracing Themes
- Part 4: Illustrating Biblical Theology: The Use of Earlier Scripture in Later Scripture
- Part 5: Applying Biblical Theology
We start with defining terms, methods, and then we highlight the themes to show how they fit together. In the end, we get very practical about how to teach BT, apply it, and how to be motivated to engage in BT.
Zaspel:
We are talking to Drs. Jason DeRouchie, Oren Martin, and Andy Naselli, authors of the new book, 40 Questions about Biblical Theology. It is a genuine contribution to this important field of study and a very helpful book that will certainly prove to be a “must read” for anyone undertaking the study.
Jason, Oren, Andy, congratulations again, and great to talk to you – thanks so much.
