An Author Interview from Books At a Glance
You just might be surprised how a technological subject like Artificial Intelligence can be a topic of Christian concern, but that’s why Jason Thacker has written this new book, The Age of AI: Artificial Intelligence and the Future of Humanity. I’m Fred Zaspel, editor here at Books At a Glance, and we’re talking to Jason Thacker today about this topic and his new work.
Jason, welcome, and congratulations on your new book!
Thacker:
Thank you so much, Fred; it is a joy to be with you.
Zaspel:
What is “Artificial Intelligence,” and in what ways is it already with us in daily life?
Thacker:
I think that is a great place to start. Often when I talk about artificial intelligence or write about it, people have one of two reactions. They either have kind of a deep-seated fear of like killer-robots or God-feeling robot or continued automation trend, so it kind serves up a lot of fear. Or there’s kind of an apathy where people are saying, “Well, that’s really not a technology for today. I am not really using this stuff. It seems sci-fi/futuristic.” And often from where we’re getting a lot of these ideas is from sci-fi movies or TV shows or on Bicentennial Man or Terminator—those type of things.
But, we are using artificial intelligence every single day. It drives our social media feeds; it drives a lot of the search results that we see. We also have these devices throughout our homes already. Whether it’s a smart-home device like a Siri or Google home or something like that, or even just a lot of the kind of personalized or smart features that we find in our technologies like our Nest thermostat that we have in our home is driven in large part by artificial intelligence. There is a really great quote that I open the book up with from Ray Kurzweil which listeners may be familiar with. He is a popular Googler, works at Google, and has written a lot of really helpful books on computer science. And he opened his book up about how to create a mind by basically saying if all of the AI system decided to wake up tomorrow, we wouldn’t be able to communicate, our manufacturing would grind to a halt, our security would be compromised, because these systems are driving so much of the modern technology that we have. And often Christians just haven’t given a lot of attention to it, and that’s one of the reasons why I wanted to write the book.
Zaspel:
Interesting. What is your book all about, and what is the contribution you hope to make? You are doing doctoral work in a related area. Tell us all about that.
Thacker:
Yeah, so I did my masters at Southern Seminary in Louisville. While I was there I was just doing a lot of theology, missions, and ethics in your typical studies in a MDiv. By the time my wife and I met, married, and moved to Nashville, I started working with the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission, the public policy arm of the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC). Through that work, I was always interested in technology. I grew up surrounded by it. I’m a little older than most when you say that I grew up with the Internet. But my dad worked for a Fortune 500 tech company for most of my early childhood. We were just exposed a lot of the really early on and kind of given my interest, but also a lot of my training, I started doing a lot of reading. I was interested in some popular books like Harari’s Homo Deus: A Brief History of Tomorrow, predicting where technology is going to take us. Folks like Ray Kurzweil a lot of popular topics and the more I just was reading started to do a little engagement with these two writings.
I was encouraged by Dr. Russell Moore, our president, as well as my boss. The more I did it the more I enjoy it more people were interested in it, so that’s kind of how the book really came about. We were working on a parallel project on the set of ethical principles and a framework for artificial intelligence at the ERLC while I was working on the book.
And the book is intentionally written to be an entry-level guide for Christians who may have never even thought about artificial intelligence or even technology at large to help give a framework and an understanding for how we as Christians should process a lot of these things because I say in the book, and a lot of my writing artificial intelligence is really causing new questions of humanity per se, but really, some of the age-old questions in light of new opportunity.
There’s a big debate in science and even an AI, “Is there a God?” Most of the time people say there isn’t, and what does it mean to be human. There is often a reductionistic view of what it means to be human and as Christian step into the spaces, we have the hope of the gospel. We understand that there is a God and he speaks to us, he created us in that image, and through that framework, we can then rightly use technology as I argue throughout the book in light of Matthew 22.
It is where Jesus is saying that first and greatest commandment to love the Lord your God with all your heart mind soul and strength and then to also love your neighbor as yourself, recognizing the dignity and value of every human being no matter where they come from, what they do, because our worth and value is not based on what we do or what we contribute to society as opposed a lot of modern-day philosophies. It is rooted in that image of God and how God made us. For us to live out that image throughout the world that is going to include how we utilize technology, how we develop it, and how we use in our society—ultimately to uphold human dignity of all people.
Zaspel:
Tell us about the contribution you hope to make.
Thacker:
Yeah, from what I can tell there are only a handful of folks who have really stepped into that space and done some really great work, bringing out the theological implications. As I was studying a lot of the literature I was reading, a lot of secular literature presents a very dystopian type future that predicted this idea that we will have an artificial general intelligence, which is essentially just human-level intelligence, and how AI might affect the future—whether jobs or in military. AI throughout the news, headline after headline, has red-eyed robots, big fear tactics, and like the world is now coming to an end as we know it, with everything changing.
And so, when I was writing the book, I was intentionally trying to cut through a lot of the hype with artificial intelligence and say look, this is a helpful technology. It is something that we as Christians and our culture and society can utilize for great good—medical applications, military applications, even little things for families, or even just our personal life. As we said earlier, artificial intelligence isn’t something that’s far-off and futuristic; it is something that is often within arm’s length of us at all times, and we use it all the time. But, a lot of the rise of AI causes us to ask a lot of existential or foundational type questions about the nature the world, the nature of humanity, and how we should be utilizing technology.
So, what I wanted to do in the book is to speak hope into that area, bring clarity, and also to raise the issue for the Christian church to begin engaging proactively, because often the church has played second fiddle. We are very reactive when it comes to cultural issues—things like sexuality, marriage, issues of abortion, and race. What I want us to do in the church is my hope for the book, that this book starts the conversation about these topics. I don’t think this is the only book on the topic to be written, and I hope there is more written. I hope people continue to engage the things that AI is doing from a Christian worldview, a scriptural worldview that says that there is a God, he created us, and that not only did he create us, but he created us unique and distinct, and he’s given us jobs to do.
Often, when we think of work, we think that the old 9 to 5 is something that is a grind—something that’s a product of the Fall, but it’s not. We have been created to work, but sin has distorted our work. Sin has made work difficult and hard. What we can do is utilize technology in our lives to ultimately bring glory to God and recognize the dignity of all people.
Zaspel:
Technology itself, of course, is a neutral thing that can be used either for good or for evil.
Thacker:
Yeah, you are exactly right. There’s a lot of debate even within the Christian community. But even outside culture regarding what technology is, and how are we to use it, and I argue throughout the book that technology is amoral and it is not morally responsible has no moral agency. It is not evil in itself, or good in itself, but it is a tool that God has given us the ability to create, to use for good, but often because we are sinners and because we rebel, because often we think of ourselves before we think of others, we misuse these tools, not using them the way they were supposed to be used. They can bring about bias and discrimination or even human lives that can be lost in terms of utilizing tools on the battlefield. There’s a lot of implications here for the Christian church to be thinking through and really proclaiming what it means to be created in God’s image and what human flourishing really looks like in light of the Scriptures.
Zaspel:
What counsel would you like to give parents in regard to AI?
Thacker:
I wrote an entire chapter on the family, and a lot of folks like that. A lot of folks were shocked and surprised because they think their kids don’t really use AI. I have a three-year-old and a one-year-old. In our home, we have a lot of AI power devices on anything that’s considered smart like a smartphone or smart device or even today you can buy a smart microwave or smart refrigerator tied into Amazon Alexa, various services. Our kids are growing up with technology. This isn’t the technology of tomorrow—it is the technology of today. And even watching my children interact, we have Apple HomePod and my son is yelling at it this entire time, because he doesn’t totally understand it, what he is saying or what he is wanting it to play music or ask a question. He’s growing up with devices and pieces of technology, that for the first time in human history, we can interact with these devices as if they are humans, or as if there’s something different or unique about them.
And so, the counsel I want to give to parents is that your kids are already being exposed to these things. And, so, for parents, we need to be thinking wisely, not only about the window of when we get a smart-phone or tablet or allow Internet access because those types of questions really just concern baseline technology. We need to address a lot of the worldview behind it, teaching our kids what it means to love God and our neighbor as ourselves in the light of a lot these technologies in our homes and schools. We must raise our children to ask, “What are the future job possibilities for me, and what jobs will be replaced?” so that as we raise our children, we can raise them to love God and their neighbor, but then also to really fulfill this step in how they have been created in God’s image.
Zaspel:
In a way, AI can be viewed as an outworking of the Creation Mandate, can’t it?
Thacker:
Yeah, and there’s so many good applications of AI. That’s why I’m often just kind of discouraged when we see headline after headline after headline of killer-robots or job-stealing robots or mass automation job loss, because there is so much fear. But in reality, specifically in the medical community, artificial intelligence benefits technology, not only in terms of convenience, but in our lives, just making things easier, like I have predictive text in my email. That is an AI. Using AI at work, I’m typing something out, and it tries to finish the sentence for me, or it’s curating a lot of news and events, going through hundreds and hundreds of articles, maybe an AI can help pull out a few that it thinks I’m interested in.
Now, obviously, there are drawbacks to that, with the rise of fake news, mixed information, and a lot of click-bait. But, there’s also really good information, so I think as Christians, we need to step in, not only those who are developing and creating technologies, but the church at large, to step and say, this is how we should be thinking about a lot of moral issues, like ethical issues surrounding artificial intelligence. Our culture is already asking these questions, and I think it’s high-time for churches to not only be asking questions of ourselves, but providing that hope in the future is one of the greatest gifts outside of the gospel of Jesus Christ that we can give people. That is, we need to help them think of themselves, as created in God’s image—that uniqueness, that human dignity—as we proclaim the gospel, but doing in a winsome way that helps people see that there is a way to think about our world and our society that ultimately leads to human flourishing as we honor God. And we ought to bring hope into the conversation.
So, my purpose in this book is twofold. I want to equip the church to be thinking through these issues but also be empowering Christians to step into a lot of these questions, because every single day, we see a new set of ethical guidelines or principles or a lot of questions surrounding AI, or for other emerging technologies like facial recognition. There is debate on public policy issues that are coming through that. I want to equip Christians to be thinking about these things.
Zaspel:
Before I let you go, give us an overview of your book so our listeners can know what to expect.
Thacker:
So, the very first thing I did in the very first chapter is setting the foundation. As I said earlier, AI is not really causing us to ask new questions of humanity, but often age-old questions in light of new opportunities, and so I start with the basics, like “What is Artificial Intelligence?” I get into the worldview behind AI, looking at a lot of the materialistic underpinnings of this idea, that there’s really nothing spiritual, everything is matter. We get into some of those type of issues, proclaiming that what it means to be created in God’s image, moving into a chapter on how we view ourselves, and how AI is changing not only how we view ourselves, and how we interact in our world, moving into issues of medicine and the benefits and drawbacks there. Things we need to keep in mind for the family, and onto issues of the work, issues of data and privacy, which is a huge issue that a lot of people are starting to think and wonder about. How does a Christian understand issues of data privacy in the modern age? I have a chapter on warfare, about how these tools are already being used on the battlefield and in our military, and ending with a chapter really focused on the future, thinking about where we are headed. What are some of the issues defining some of the terms, that like singularity or AGI or super intelligence? People hear these terms, but they don’t totally understand what is being said, and ending with a discussion of what kind of hope there is now.
I don’t fear AI, nor do I think the Church should. This is a tool that God has given us to honor him and to love our neighbor with, and something that we can utilize for great good if we do it with the right ethical framework and understanding of the universe.
What I fear is that the Christian Church, even society at large, will define humanity down, saying that we are nothing but simple machines, which stems from a materialistic worldview. This kind of thinking is dehumanizing of other image-bearers, because we seek to humanize our technologies, putting them on a level that they were never created to be on.
So, no matter how advanced technology becomes, nothing will ever take the place of humanity. There is such a thing as human exceptionalism and dignity, grounded in the image of God, and that is never going to change. We step into this issue with the hope of knowing the end of the story from Revelation 21. There we see all Christians gathered around the throne of God, worshipping, singing, “Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord God Almighty!” We know the end of the story, so our question and mandate is to step in and proclaim Christ as the only hope, and that being created in his image means to live for his glory, and to love God and neighbor.
Zaspel:
We’re talking to Jason Thacker, author of the new book, The Age of AI: Artificial Intelligence and the Future of Humanity. It’s a genuine contribution to Christian reading – a fascinating book and a fascinating area of study that bears on your life every day. We encourage you to get a copy.
Jason, thanks much for talking with us today about your work.
Thacker:
Thank you so much, Fred, it was fun.
