An Author Interview from Books At a Glance
Greetings! I’m Fred Zaspel and welcome to another Author Interview here at Books At a Glance. Today we are talking to Drs. Michael Kruger and Tom Schreiner, each of whom has written a recent commentary on the book of Hebrews. Dr. Kruger’s commentary is in the For You commentary series from the Good Book Company just newly released, and Dr. Schreiner’s commentary is in the Evangelical Biblical Theology Commentary series from Lexham Press – it’s recent also, although it does have a brief history before Lexham; maybe he’ll tell us about that too. The commentaries differ in approach and have differing purposes and audiences in mind, but both are excellent new resources for the study of Hebrews, and we are glad to have Dr. Kruger and Dr. Schreiner with us.
Mike and Tom, welcome, and congratulations on these helpful studies.
Zaspel:
Okay first let’s talk just briefly about your commentaries themselves in terms of your intended audience, your goals, and so on. Mike let’s begin with yours. I’ve been very impressed with other volumes of the For You series also – tell us what niche this seeks to fill and how your commentary comes about.
Kruger:
This is going to be a very different commentary than what most commentaries are like in people’s minds and different from Tom’s. The For You series from The Good Book Company is designed to be more practical and user-friendly. It takes material that authors have done in other formats like sermons or Bible study and adapts them into a commentary. For more than two years I taught a Bible study here on the Charlotte campus for the community and it was on the book of Hebrews. They were all recorded and passed around, and videotaped. Those made the rounds and then I was approached by The Good Book Company and asked to turn it into a commentary. Mine does not have the expensive footnotes and background discussions. It is more practical oriented, more illustrations, the kind of thing that is more helpful for immediate Bible study, and sermon preparation. I am confident that Tom’s will also be fantastic for that.
Zaspel:
Tom, your commentary is a bit non-traditional in another way – tell us about it.
Schreiner:
First, you mentioned the 1st edition came out in 2015. The first edition went out of print, I did not make any changes, this is the same commentary I wrote back then. It is scholarly but not terribly technical. It is a biblical, theological commentary series. I talk about biblical-theological themes, the new covenant, priesthood of Jesus, warning passages, footnotes, but not a ton of technical things. I outline Scriptures, exegesis, and a short bridge. There are 500 pages or so on Hebrews. It is good for seminarians and college students, or the ordinary person who teaches Sunday school could be helped by it.
Zaspel:
Okay, let’s talk about Hebrews. How would you characterize the theme or main point of this letter? To whom does he write, and why? And maybe I should also ask you here to explain why this letter is often described as a written sermon.
Schreiner:
It is a sermon. That is how the author does his letter. In 13:22 he gives a word of exhortation. Those are the exact words in 13:15 when Paul is asked to give an exhortation in Antioch. Hebrews is daunting and foreign to us. It is helpful to say what we have a sermon in Hebrews. I believe the sermon has one main point. It is: do not fall away from Christ and the Gospel. I would argue the five warning passages in the letter, all support that one main point. All the theology of the book undergirds and serves the exhortation.
You could say the main theme is the theology too. I would characterize the theme in terms of theology as Jesus is better. Better than the angels, Moses, Joshua, a better priest, and a better covenant. Since Jesus is better, do not fall away. I like to emphasize that because so many people feel that Hebrews is forbidding. It is beautifully written, and this author was an intellectual. The alliteration in verse 1 alone is a gorgeous piece of art. At the same time, we can understand and apply it to our lives today.
Kruger:
I agree there is a homiletic quality to the letter. It has been discussed as an exhortational epistle or sermon. It does not open like a letter. There are hints here and there that suggest you might be dealing with some sort of sermon. It does have the exhortational warning component. It is calling people to something. The theme is a positive and negative theme. There are two sides of the same coin. The positive is the supremacy of Christ over all things, of Jesus is better. The negative is about apostasy, do not fall away. The two sides of the coin need each other. If Jesus is better do not fall away. They are the same theme from two different angles.
Zaspel:
Tom, you mention in the Introduction to your commentary that wide agreement is lacking with regard to the exact structure of the letter, but the outline you and Mike provide is not very different. So, this for either or both of you – 1) are there particular “sticking” points that make this difficult? And 2) if you would give us a brief overview and track out for us the author’s argument just in broad strokes as you understand it.
Schreiner:
One of the reasons it is harder to structure is that it is permeated by the warning passages. How do you insert those as a whole? The key to understanding it is he does theology, and then there is a warning passage and isolates between the two throughout the book.
- Chapters 1 and 2 – Jesus is better than the angels.
- Chapters 3 and 4 – Jesus is better than Moses and Joshua.
- Chapters 5-10 – Jesus is the better priest.
- Chapters 11-13 are the exhortations.
That is a simplistic outline. Those are the general terms in which the structure operates.
Kruger:
It is almost like the author is thinking about all the arguments a person of Israel would make to argue the Old Covenant is better. What do they love about the Old Covenant that is better than the new? The book is structured as him setting up anything that could be better than Christ and knocking it down one by one. I tell my students if you really want to understand the way the two covenants relate, old and new, and therefore how the New Testament and Old Testament relate. This book is for you. He is doing that the entire book. It is one big treatise of sorts on Old Testament versus New Testament and how the New Covenant is superior to the old.
Zaspel:
At the very outset, the author affirms the superiority of Christ to the Old Testament prophets. They spoke here and there, then, and again, each making their distinctive contribution to our knowledge of God. But now God has spoken to us climactically by his Son. Explain for us some of the terminology the writer uses in verses 2-3 to emphasize Christ’s superiority.
Kruger:
I love how the book starts. It is a bit like John’s prologue, not linguistically or grammatically, but the depth of the beauty of the theological treatment of Christ. It starts off by explaining the theme of the book. You have the old revelation, “in many times and in many ways, God spoke.” The new revelation, “in these last days, he has spoken to us by his Son.” He dives into all the qualities of Jesus; we have this rich running list of things about Christ. There is a lot that can be said about that list. Built within that list are the three offices of Christ, prophet, priest, and king. He is the full and final revelation of God, a prophet. He is the creator, ruler, and sustainer of the world, the king. He has made purification for sins, the priest.
Schreiner:
Absolutely right! When you look at the first three verses, these are texts on Jesus’ deity. The universe was made through him in verse 2, “he sustains all things in the universe by the word of his power.” At the same time, God, and man, are emphasized dramatically. Verse 3 is fundamental, “after making purification for sins he sat down at the right hand of the majesty on high.” That is a Psalm 110 allusion, “the Lord said to my Lord sit at my right hand until I make the enemy your footstool.” Jesus has made purification and cleansed our sins. He sat down at the right hand of the majesty on high. There is full, final, definitive forgiveness of sins. In a way, the author could have stopped the book right there. He unpacks it for us.
Zaspel:
Could this be considered the theme statement for the letter, stated upfront?
Schreiner:
Right, we do not have the warning passages, but the warning passages are built on what we find here.
Kruger:
It is like a miniature table of contents.
Zaspel:
Let’s take chapters 1-2 together. Explain for us the progression of thought.
Kruger:
Here you have the juxtaposition of the deity and humanity of Jesus. The rest of chapter 1 is all those Old Testament citations. We can see them as proof texts for the Christological claims. Many passages observed in the Old Testament context are talking about Yahweh now applied to Jesus. When you switch to chapter 2 it flips. There is a grand focus on the humanity of Jesus. It is the most profound passage in all the Bible about his humanity. He is like his brothers in every respect so that he is a merciful, faithful high priest. I often say the humanity of Jesus is as important to our salvation as his divinity. If he were not really human, he could not represent us as we need him to. In modern-day they grant that he was a man but do not grant that he is God. In our New Testament world, they used to be convinced of the opposite.
Schreiner:
I would add that humanity of Jesus is crucial for one of the major arguments of the book. It is that Jesus is our great high priest. We do not want to separate them from one another, but he cannot be our great high priest without being a man.
Zaspel:
In Hebrews 3:1 Jesus is called both “the apostle and high priest.” Mike, you make a good point here as to why these two designations are significant together. Explain that for us.
Kruger:
Both aspects of Jesus’ role are captured here together. We have talked about the high priest side; he is the one who intercedes and represents man to God. On the apostle side, you see he is sent from God to speak to man. He is a messenger from God. The arrows go both ways. Someone to represent humans to God and someone to represent God to humans. Jesus is the perfect bridge. He is a great mediator.
Zaspel:
In Hebrews 10:19 the writer says “Therefore …” and then gives a series of three exhortations. Some have argued that this marks out chapters 7-10 or 8-10 as the “heart” of the letter. Would you agree with that? And in any case, explain for us these exhortations in light of the preceding argument.
Schreiner:
I would argue Jesus is better or greater than the angels. Why do the angles come up in chapters 1 and 2? I would suggest they come up because they were the mediators of the law. Chapter 3, Jesus is greater than Moses, you have the focus on the law. Then in the priesthood, it is tied together with the mosaic law. There is a particular emphasis on chapters 7-10, but we should not extract these exhortations from the entire book. The exhortations are, let us draw near with a true heart and full assurance of faith. Barnabas Lindars has a book on the theology of Hebrews. Lindars suggests that the readers struggle with a sense of incompleteness in terms of assurance about having their sins forgiven. Perhaps, they found the levitical cult as granting them such assurance because it was visible, physical, and repeated.
The great argument of the book is that the levitical cult does not grant the assurance we need. It is only granted through the priesthood and sacrifice of Jesus. So, we can draw near in a way that is accessed through the new covenant. This is helpful when all that levitical priesthood language is difficult for people today, here is the pastoral payoff. We have assurance to enter God’s presence through the blood of Jesus. Hebrews speaks powerfully to the issue of guilt. The call to hold on, the 2nd exhortation relates to warning passages and then to consider how to provoke one another to love and good works. He picks this up in chapter 13 and the importance of gathering together in verse 25.
Kruger:
The author captures the things about the old levitical system that anyone who has paid attention to it knows that it does not really get the job done. If you need someone to represent you before God, it is a problem that the priests who represent you keep dying. You are going to be cleansed by these animal sacrifices but must keep making them. You are supposed to have access to God’s holiness, but there is a big curtain that blocks you from God’s holiness. The old covenant order was shouting a theological message for those who had ears. All along it was pointing to something coming that would be efficacious. It helps us understand how the Old Testament and New Testament are a shadow and a reality.
Zaspel:
Let’s talk about the warning passages. First, is there significance in their placement throughout the letter? And then how are we to understand them in light of the doctrines of preservation and perseverance? What is their function in the letter, and how can we best profit from them?
Schreiner:
The placement is very significant because there are five warning passages.
- 2:1-4
- 3:12-4:13
- 5:11-6:12
- 10:26-39
- 12:25-29
I would argue the different warning passages function together, the sermonic hortatory character of the book. The five warning passages mutually interpret one another and ought to be read synoptically. There is a tendency to read them separately. It is like shaking a kaleidoscope, you get a different view with each one. Here I disagree with many reformed readers, I have great respect for my predecessors. I follow Spurgeon’s reading of the warning passages.
I argue that in Hebrews 6 the description of the people is Christian. The warnings are given to believers. The warnings function as a means so the readers will not fall away. I am thoroughly Reformed, so I argue the warnings are efficacious in the life of the election. They are the means by which true believers are kept so they play a vital role. The warnings are not fundamentally a call to introspection. The writer is not asking are you really a Christian, are you close but not quite in. Hebrews 6 is sometimes read that way. It is a call to action to continue to trust in Jesus until the end. I realize good interpreters see it a little differently from me.
Kruger:
Tom and I share a lot here. We are both committed to a reformed evangelical understanding. The perseverance of the saints, a person cannot lose their salvation. I take a different view on Hebrews 6. The person there being described there is not a Christian but someone who seemed like a Christian and fell away. An apostate is someone who looked like a Christian but turned out not to be.
That does not mean the warnings are not valid. The warnings are the means by which God preserves the saints. Those who are elect will heed the warnings and those who are not, will not. That does not make them invalid because someone cannot actually lose their salvation. My students will say it sounds a lot like a Christian. That is what an apostate is they seem like a Christian, but they end up proving not to be in the end. There are multiple good views and opinions on this text. The main point is that we affirm the perseverance of the saints.
Zaspel:
Let’s wrap up with some attention to the famous chapter 11 of Hebrews, the “hall of faith” as it is often called. In brief, what is the substance of this chapter, and what is its function in the larger context of the book?
Schreiner:
The call to faith is seen in chapters 3 and 4. Apostasy is the failure to believe. Chapter 11, what does it mean to persevere till the end? You trust in God. All the worthies who are mentioned in chapter 11 are examples of those who persevered in believing. Another reason it is helpful to consider chapter 11 in terms of the warnings, is that they are not fundamentally a call to work harder. The warnings that permeate the book, are a call to trust in God and rest in him. What it means to heed the warnings of the book is to continue to cling to Jesus. All those who truly trust in the Lord end up obeying him.
Kruger:
It is a real danger when you warn someone against apostasy, they might think they need to try harder. It is not “the hall of good works;” it is the hall of “here is the fruit of faith and what it can produce in you.” Hebrews 11 is a rehearsal of the entire Old Testament. It reminds us the Old Testament is about faith just like the New Testament. Any misunderstanding that the Old Testament was works and the New Testament was faith is shattered by Hebrews 11. It has always been by faith and God has always honored it in the means that we relate to him. It has the Gospel message at its core.
Schreiner:
When we read about Noah in the Old Testament and he walked with God. Nothing is said about their faith. Yet Hebrews helps us understand those texts. They are walking with God in obedience and it flowed from their faith. The canonical reading is fascinating to me.
Zaspel:
This has been very helpful.
We’re talking to Drs. Michael Kruger and Tom Schreiner about the letter to the Hebrews. Be sure to check out their new commentaries: Hebrews for You by Michael Kruger, and Hebrews: Evangelical Biblical Theology Commentary by Tom Schreiner. As you can tell from their discussion, their commentaries are really excellent resources for studying this marvelous book of Hebrews.
Mike, Tom, thanks so much for your faithful work and for talking to us today.
Kruger:
Thanks, Fred!
Schreiner:
Great to be with you!
