An Author Interview from Books At a Glance
Everyone loves a love story, especially when it is a true love story – and even more especially when it is a true love story of a hero we have long admired.
Greetings, I’m Fred Zaspel, and welcome to another Author Interview here at Books At a Glance. I’m talking of course about Charles and Susie Spurgeon, and today we are talking to Dr. Ray Rhodes about his absolutely delightful new book, Yours, Till Heaven: The Untold Love Story of Charles and Susie Spurgeon.
Ray, great to have you back with us, and congratulations on another wonderful Spurgeon title!
Rhodes:
Thank you, Fred. Thanks for having me!
Zaspel:
In your previous book, Susie, you bring much to light about not just Susie herself but also about her relationship with Charles. In this book, you probe a bit more narrowly into their loving marriage relationship. We know from your subtitle what your book is all about, but what’s the story behind the main title, Yours, Till Heaven?
Rhodes:
Charles Spurgeon was the prince of preachers and prince of lovers. He wrote Susie many love letters. When he was away from her, he wrote every day. He wrote “yours till heaven” in a letter in December of 1855. He is about to go on a trip to visit his parents in Colchester. He says goodbye, boards the train, and soon after on the train he writes her a letter and signs it “yours till heaven and then.” Later in the book, I talk about the “and then.”
Zaspel:
This book is the first to focus specifically on the marriage of Charles and Susie Spurgeon, so talk to us about your sources and how you conducted your research. What sources did you have, especially the primary sources? Where did you go? … and so on.
Rhodes:
I have been privileged to go to England twice. The second time I chased Spurgeon down across England and France. It was helpful to visit the library in Oxford. I accessed a collection of Baptist history and Spurgeon’s material. We visited the Metropolitan Tabernacle as well. It was great to be on site to do research and just the experience of being there. I found The Sword and Trowel, his monthly magazine from 1865 and onward, to be tremendously helpful. There are mountains of unexplored material in The Sword and Trowel.
After he died, he left notes behind that would be used for his autobiography. Susie was a coeditor and major contributor. Originally it was done in four large volumes. There was lots of material and photos in that set. I have one of the original sets of it. It was done in an abridgment in Banner of Truth. That is firsthand from the hand of Spurgeon, Susie, and his secretary, Joseph Harold, who was one of his very close friends. I used newspaper articles. I prescribed to newspapers.com, world edition, and was able to go back to newspapers of that time.
Susie’s other books, especially her books on the Book Fund that she wrote. She often gives pictures into their home. Those are the primary sources and some secondary sources. There is not a lot of correspondence from them out there. Mostly what I have is what she put in the autobiography. Some of the letters Spurgeon wrote at the Metropolitan Tabernacle, there are very few letters that are left for us from Susie to Charles. We have some from him to her. Not as much has been discovered yet.
Zaspel:
And you have an endorsement from a relative.
Rhodes:
Yes! Susannah Spurgeon Cochran is the great great granddaughter of Charles and Susie, her father is David Spurgeon. He died a couple of years ago. Great to know her family, her husband Tim. She has contributed to both books with her endorsement. She is a lovely, Godly, young mother.
Zaspel:
You mention that Charles was not much to look at and that Charles and Susie are in some respects very much “opposites.” So, tell us about first impressions – Susie’s of Charles and Charles’ of Susie. What did they see in each other at first? And what about that first time she heard him preach?
Rhodes:
The first time she ever saw him was December 18, 1853. Charles was visiting London as a guest preacher at the New Park Street Chapel. Susie and her family attended the church there but were not members. She was urged to come to the evening service to hear Spurgeon. She was unimpressed with everything about him, from the way he looked, to the way he preached. She did not remember if she met him that evening or not. She did not understand why so many folks were excited about his preaching. Sometime later the church invited him to come back again.
We do not have an account of Charles’ first meeting with Susie. They came into contact with one another at the home of one of the chief deacons, Thomas Olney, and his family. He was responsible for getting Spurgeon to preach. Susie was a relative and they treated her as their own daughter. So, they met on her frequent visits. In April 1854 he formally become the pastor. They met during those times. Spurgeon learned that Susie was struggling spiritually. She had been converted a year earlier but she admitted she had fallen into a backslidden situation. Spurgeon sent her a copy of The Pilgrims Progress.
Zaspel:
Okay, how did things progress from there? And tell us about how Charles first showed his interest in Susie. Were his intentions at first purely pastoral?
Rhodes:
The indication is that it was pastoral in nature. Susie says that directly. However, I wonder a little bit about that because if we do the timeline of December of 1853, Susie is unimpressed, and in April 1854, he sends her The Pilgrim’s Progress. She begins opening up to him at that point, discussing her spiritual journey and he counsels her. A short time later he is revealing his feelings to her. You got to wonder at some point if Spurgeon is saying in the back of his mind that he is interested.
Zaspel:
Tell us about their courtship and then their engagement – and why the long year and a half before marriage? And where did they honeymoon?
Rhodes:
In April of 1854, he sends a copy of Pilgrim’s Progress and she begins opening up about struggles. Then two months later in June of 1854 is the grand reopening of the Crystal Palace in London, which is a huge building of iron and glass. Housing items that are the great inventions of the world. Especially highlighting London as the great city in the world. Queen Victoria is there and other dignitaries. I describe that and have a picture of where Victoria is on the stage. Charles and Susie are there with a church group. She seems unsuspecting, thinking they are just gathering as a church group.
Spurgeon is sitting beside her with a book in his hand. He opens it to a section, a book by Martin Temper on proverbial philosophy, he opens to a part on marriage. He points that out to her and asks if she prays for the one who is to be her husband. She figured out what he was saying. After the procession was over, he whispered in her ear and asked to take a walk. She could not remember how they broke away from the group. In Victorian England, prior to engagements, to walk away unchaperoned would have been unusual. They go for a walk outside, down the steps, out to the lake. They arrive at where the first dinosaur models are located. They had just been revealed and are still there today. She describes looking at these “extinct monsters.” Her heart is beating fast and love is in the air. All of a sudden it is like the light comes on in her heart.
My wife and I had the opportunity to go to the ruins of the Crystal Palace. It burned in 1936. The steps were still there, and we went to the lake, saw the dinosaur models. It was a moving and romantic experience for me and my wife. To know this is where it all happened. Two months later he pops the question and tells her he loves her. I am taken aback by the timeline. Just a few months earlier in 1853, she is unimpressed with Charles. Nine months later they are engaged. Then married a year and a half later.
We do not have a definitive answer on why it was such a long engagement. It was common at that time. We can imagine that Spurgeon is busy in ministry. It was early in his ministry; the demands were off the charts. Maybe they needed time, and there was some sort of reluctance by her father initially. They went to Paris for their honeymoon, not a bad place to honeymoon.
Zaspel:
Just in broad strokes, what was their relationship like? Take your time here if you need and give us a picture of Charles and Susie Spurgeon together.
Rhodes:
Paris was a great start for them. Susie had been there when she was a teenager numerous times. She learned French and the culture of Paris. She was the tour guide. After they got back, they set up home in a small place. A couple of years later they moved. Their home was set up like this, Susie said, “I want the best room in our house to be dedicated to his study. That is where the thinking, reading, and writing happens.” She kept that desire and commitment throughout all their homes together.
Spurgeon wasn’t wealthy at the beginning, so they had to cut their budget to support various ministry pursuits like the pastor’s college. She gladly did that. They held hands and traveled together. She was with him in Geneva at Calvin’s pulpit. He wore clerical garments. He was glad to do so to preach there. They prayed and read scripture every day together. It was a sweet romance throughout all of their lives.
Zaspel:
What about the hardships they faced together?
Rhodes:
There were many hardships. They began early in their marriage. They were married in January 1856 and less than a year later in September 1856 they had twins and that all goes wonderfully. A month later they outgrow their chapel building. A Sunday evening in October, he is preaching at the Surrey Gardens music hall. There were 10,000 inside and 10,000 outside. There was lots of excitement and buzzing around. At the start of the service, someone yells, “fire!” Folks panic and seven are trampled to death, thirty are hospitalized. It was a horrific night and it almost pushed Spurgeon out of the ministry. He went into deep depression over all of this.
There were two book ends, that night and then at the end of their marriage, the great downgrade controversy happened. This is when he battled for truth in the Baptist Union against liberalism. He was censured and lost friendships. On his deathbed, Susie said his heart was still broken over that. She thought that was the human means of his early death at age 57. Along the way sickness, theological controversies, ridicule from the paper, and even from some ministers and religious leaders of the day.
Zaspel:
How did Susie help to make Charles the man we admire still today, and how did Charles, as you put it, help Susie to become one of history’s greatest women?
Rhodes:
She was devoted to his public ministry. It took quite a person that felt a sense of calling to be married to Charles Spurgeon. He was not ordinary. He became one of the most famous Victorians of the day, among the most famous men of the world, and one of the most famous preachers. She had to decide early on to never do anything that would hinder him in his ministry. She would not even allow any sicknesses she might incur to hinder him from his work. He knew he had a wife at home who was not sulking or bitter for his ministry.
She fully supported him. She was lonely and missed him. There were times she was anxious, but she supported him even when she was very ill, and he was on the road. She said do not come home, stay with the ministry. At that time, they thought she could die but she survived. She supported him in every possible way. Her sacrifice and commitment are staggering amongst people today. Spurgeon was gone a lot during the course of their marriage. After he died, she lived to promote his books and ministry in every way she could.
To answer the second part of the question, how did Charles help Susie to become one of history’s greatest women? She was relatively shy and not assertive at all but Charles urged her during their engagement even to serve and step out and be more assertive. So, she did. She counseled women who were being baptized, lead them to the water, and ministered to them. After she died those ladies testified to her counsel.
Encouraging her forward is a constant theme as far as Spurgeon’s counsel to Susie. He had her involved in a writing project. She is behind a lot of one of his earliest works, Smooth Stones Taken from Ancient Brooks. There is a tender love story between the pages. She collected those saying and Spurgeon put together that book. The book fund from 1875 onward is what she is known for. Spurgeon challenged her and wished they could give a copy to every student in England. He said, “Ok Susie, why don’t you make that happen?” She gave away 200,000 books before she died.
Zaspel:
Tell us about his death and then hers.
Rhodes:
Spurgeon died at age 57 in Menton, France on the French Riviera, where his doctor had sent him. He was there from the early 1870s onward for his health. London was not very friendly health-wise, the cold winters, smog. Magog, as Spurgeon said of London, was painful to him. He needed warmer weather. It was a place many people sought and found recovery. You will find in the cemetery there several Londoners who died there.
Susie was not able to travel from 1870 onward to the south of France but in the providence of God the Lord gave her strength on that last trip. October 1891, her health improved, and she was able to get to him. They had what she describes as three months of perfect happiness. She said, “I went there full came away empty.” December 3, 1892 at 11:05 pm, he died with Susie and his secretary and some others at his bedside. She prayed and thanked the Lord for the gift of such a man to her and to the world.
They had a memorial service at the Presbyterian church there where he often attended when he was there. They shipped his body back to London. Susie remained back there for months. Spurgeon’s body is back in London and there is at least a week of various memorial services. 100,000 people lined the streets on the day he was buried. Flags flew at half-mast. Dignitaries from various places came.
Susie did not make it. She was in recovery physically and was emotionally not strong. She had to determine what was next in her life. Then she came back. While she was there, she determined if God would have her continue the work of Spurgeon and the book fund. She helped raised money for the Metropolitan Tabernacle when it burned. In the mid-1890s she helped them plant a church. She wrote a number of books after his death. This included coediting and contributing to a four-volume autobiography that went up to almost the time of her death. She died in October 1903. She enjoyed some better health in the last years of her life but was still sick and confined in her home as an invalid. She was buried beside Charles at the Norwood cemetery.
Zaspel:
We talked about this a bit in the interview about your previous book, Susie, but it is worth revisiting here – much of what we know about Charles Spurgeon is due specifically to Susie. Tell us a bit of how that is so.
Rhodes:
We know most about him because of the autobiography. When Spurgeon died Susie insisted on carrying on his legacy. There was a new biography of Spurgeon that came out every month for two years after he died. Twenty-four volumes came out in two years. Not all were great quality, sometimes essentially just repeating the former biographies. Still, they give us some insights into their marriage. She worked on supporting his sermons being translated and helped send them around the world.
She wrote her second book on the book fund which is a powerful story. She is writing when he dies. She goes on telling the rest of that story. In her church plant, she wanted it to be a memorial for Charles but not named after him. They were opposed to that. There would be a memorial stone at various churches. She gave the rest of her life supporting her husband and loved him all the way to the end.
Zaspel:
We’re talking to Dr. Ray Rhodes about his thoroughly delightful new book, Yours, Till Heaven: The Untold Love Story of Charles and Susie Spurgeon. It is just a wonderful read – buy a copy and enjoy! And buy a few more for family or friends – they will thank you for it!
Ray, thanks again for your great work and for talking to us today.
Rhodes:
Thank you, Fred. Many blessings to you my friend.
