An Author Interview from Books At a Glance
Greetings, I’m Fred Zaspel, and welcome to another Author Interview here at Books At a Glance.
It would be tough to find a more contemporary subject than social justice, and it’s time Christians catch on to what it’s all about. That’s the purpose of this new book, Why Social Justice Is Not Biblical Justice: An Urgent Appeal to Fellow Christians in a Time of Social Crisis. We’re talking today to the author, Scott Allen.
Scott, congratulations on your new book, and thanks for talking to us today.
Allen:
Thank you, Fred. It’s great to be with you.
Zaspel:
Your title pits the contemporary notion of “social justice” against a biblical notion of justice. So, let’s begin with definitions. What are these concepts, and how are they different?
Allen:
Right at the beginning of the book I offer as concise of a definition I can of biblical justice as well as social justice. I put quite a bit of thought into that. They do come out of different worldviews, and so have very different starting points and that is important. Biblical Justice is obviously rooted in the existence of the God of the Bible (Genesis 1:1) and it’s rooted in the scriptures themselves. Social justice comes out of a school of thought that is largely theistic, it comes out of idealism. It’s a school of thought that arose in the 1700s. People are probably familiar with Hegel and Nietzsche and some of these folks. So, it has starting points from that. But biblical justice I define this way, its “conformity to God’s moral standard as revealed in the 10 commandments, in the royal law in the New Testament which says love your neighbor as yourself.” Social justice has to do with deconstructing traditional systems and structures that are deemed to be oppressive and redistributing power and resources from oppressors to their victims in the pursuit of an equality of outcome. You can see from those two simple definitions how different these two concepts are even though they use the same word: justice.
Zaspel:
You mention the equality there. There is a difference between what we would have traditionally would have argued for in terms of equity socially. An equal playing field for everyone and what they are after is an equality. Which is really different isn’t it?
Allen
There is a concept in the Bible of equality as well. We typically hear that when we talk about human beings, our human nature. We are all made in the image and the likeness of God which gives us an equality in terms of our dignity and a lot of our different capacities as well. Our ability to love.
Zaspel:
They are talking more in terms of equality of outcomes, right?
Allen:
Exactly! So, when social justice folks use the word equality. Typically, they will use the word equity and that is kind of an equal distribution. So, one of the big issues right now for example with people that are concerned about social justice is prison reform. They will look at prison populations and say, “well there is not an equal distribution based on percentage populations of people in the prisons so that must prove positive of injustice.” So, any kind of disparity about them you might think of. There are so many examples, a famous one came out of google a few years ago where they realized “wow we have a lot more male computer scientists and programmers than female that disparity must be proof of a kind of sexism in this case and injustice.” So, they are looking for that kind of equality of outcome that is very explicit. Whereas that notion in the Bible really doesn’t exist. There can be a variety of different outcomes largely dependent upon circumstance, including personal behavior and personal choices. Those things are very much ignored by advocates of social justice.
Zaspel:
It would probably be helpful to explain the related concept of cultural Marxism and the connection between Marxism and this contemporary concept of social justice. Can you do that for us?
Allen:
The more I study contemporary social justice. The connection to Marxism became clear for me. The contemporary social justice in academic circles goes by the name critical theory or critical social theory and there is a variety of branches of it. There’s critical legal theory and critical race theory and many others. But the root of critical theory goes back to a school of thought and a group of thinkers, academic folks that came out of Europe at the end of WWII called the Frankfort school and they were Marxist. And they were interested in, what I call in the book, a reboot or rethink of traditional Marxism that would allow it to gain more traction, particularly in the United States or in the West where Karl Marx’s theory of traditional theory of economic Marxism really had not been that successful because it pitted workers against property owner. And of course, the problem in the United States is there was so much movement between classes that it never really took hold as it did in China or in Russia for example. So, these Frankfort school social theorists, these Marxist were entrusted in kind of rejiggering Marxism to make it more successful in the United States and Europe.
Zaspel:
Okay, take your time here if you need and describe for us how all this has worked its way out in our culture. You mentioned Marxism is concerned with the oppressor and the oppressed. According to the social justice warriors, what is the problem, and what is the solution? And what is the world they are trying to create?
Allen:
If you go back to Marxism 1.0, the original one, the problem in the world was not sin. Of course, that is what the Bible puts forward is the main problem. This sinful rebellion of people against their creator. The problem was oppression. In this case it was on the social and economic plain. It was oppression by property owners and capitalists against workers. The solution was to redistribute it. To seize control of these systems that created economic disparities, capitalism or what not. So, there was an equality of outcome, traditional communism. So, what we see today is that same basic concept, but the Frankfort school critical theorists expanded it. So, all the talk we have of race today or LGBTQ issues. They essentially expanded the group of oppressed and oppressors such that the oppressed were not just merely workers, the lower class, they included people of color, they included women, and sexual minorities, gays, lesbians, transgender. And for every one of those groups, there is a counter oppressor. So, in the case of people of color the oppressor would be white people and in the case of women it would be males and in the case of the LGBTQ community it would be sexual traditionalist or people that upheld biblical morality when it came to sexuality and family. So, they became this new group of oppressors. And that really brings it to the contemporary situation we find ourselves in today. It really explains why there is so much talk in the culture right now about race, about race relations and it’s what’s really driving this kind of worldview of critical theory.
Zaspel:
What about the related concept of intersectionality?
Allen:
So, intersectionality simply says if you belong to more than one of these oppressed groups your experience intensifies, so if you are a woman, for example, you have a degree of oppression just on that basis, you are oppressed by males. But if you are a black woman you have a greater degree of oppression. If you are a lesbian black woman etc. The more boxes you check off in the hierarchy of oppression the greater experience.
Zaspel:
What kind of world are they wanting to see? Is it reversing the oppression?
Allen:
It is a revolutionary movement. The way that oppressors express their power and control in this worldview is often in very stealthy social structures and systems that have been built up and put in place over many years. And pretty much the whole edifice of our social order in the United States. Things like due process, free speech, a lot of the things in our Bill of Rights. These folks would look at those and say they are tools of oppression. Even truth itself, the concept of objective truth is seen as a tool of oppressors to gain power, or a word they like to use hegemony, over the oppressed. So, the solution really is to deconstruct these systems and structures. So, in the area of race, 5 years ago you didn’t hear a lot about systemic racism. But now you hear a lot of that. One of the two candidates for President. One of his top priorities is to deconstruct systemic racism. We have these systems and structures embedded into our culture. They are often stealthy. As a white person, you could be involved in these systems and not even know it. So, you can be a racist not because of anything you have done or your attitudes you have held but simply because you benefit from these systems and structures without even knowing it. This is Marxism too, if you are a victim, you must become aware of, woke to, these systems and then you have to look for a way to tear them down. So, it is a form of revolutionary social change.
Zaspel:
Your subtitle says that your book is an “urgent appeal to Christians.” Explain for us why the appeal is so urgent, and how all this is destructive and opposed to Christianity? Talk to us if you like here in both terms of specifics and worldviews.
Allen:
The reason that I wrote the book at the end of the day was because I became quite alarmed at how deeply this ideology had begun to come into the Bible-believing or evangelical church. It uses a particular lexicon. Phrases like white privilege, or fragility. I began to hear more and more of that lexicon being used by really prominent leaders in many of our key institutions, Christian universities, seminaries, and publishing houses. There has always been a minority of evangelicals who might be sympathetic to some of these ideas, but I was alarmed that it was coming to the very heart of the church. So, I felt like I needed to write the book. It really is stealthy. It uses biblical words like justice we all care about justice deeply, so we should. We want to be empathetic and compassionate to victims of oppression, that is very biblical. So, it uses biblical words and concepts but then it redefines them. It redefines justice, racism, and oppression. I think there are a lot of Christians being duped by this. It is dangerous for the church, extremely dangerous. It is a false worldview. There are so many elements of it that are false. The Bible puts forward a view of human nature that says we are made in God’s image and our choices matter. We will be held accountable for the choices that we make. We are sinners. All these concepts are essential to our faith and the Gospel. They are not held by people that subscribe to critical theory. Rather to be a human is to be defined by a group. What matters is your skin color, your sex or sexual orientation. These things define you. One thing that alarmed me is in critical theory there is an erasing of the individual. They become a mouthpiece or avatar for their groups. These groups are put on a spectrum of oppressor or oppressed. Guilt and innocence is no longer a function of who you are or what you do. This destroys the Gospel. You can feel a sense of moral innocence if you are a particular group or feel guilt and really cannot be forgiven if you are another group. It undermines the heart of our faith. Critical theory is built on this notion, ultimately atheistic. It starts from the presumption that there is no god. We are shaped not by God but by culture. The thing they are most interested in is power. You have power or you do not. In their world power is seen in this negative light. And in a zero-sum light. You have power for one purpose only to lord it over people without power and victimize people. To enrich and empower yourself. That idea of power is also different in a biblical worldview. The most powerful being in the universe God himself is also completely good and completely loving. In a fallen world we know power is something that is used and abused but we can’t limit our understanding of power to the negative picture you see in critical theory or social justice.
Zaspel:
Can you tell us briefly about your own background and experience in all this and how you came to write this book?
Allen:
My background starts with my career. I have spent my entire career working in Christian relief and development. God many years ago called me to work with the poor. I serve with the organization Food for The Hungry. A Christian relief and development organization. Similar to World Vision or Compassion. I have traveled all over the world and always had a heart for the poor. Consequently, I have had a real heart for justice. So much poverty is the result of injustice. I also saw that for impoverished communities and families to rise out of poverty and begin to prosper and flourish, the most powerful thing we can bring them as Christians isn’t money or projects of different sorts. Its truth. Biblical truth has the power to raise people out of poverty and brokenness. So much poverty is rooted in beliefs and ideas. And that is why I became concerned here about the ideology of social justice because it purports to care for the poor and oppressed but it does just the opposite of everything it purports to do. It makes conditions worse for people in poverty by locking them into a sense of entitlement and dependency. It makes racism worse; it fosters intensified racism. I began to see how it’s so damaging and dangerous. Our calling as Christians is to speak and to live out biblical truth in ways that bless the nations and bless our neighbors. I care deeply about that and saw this as a threat to it.
Zaspel:
Before we sign off, give us a brief overview of your book so our listeners can know what to expect.
Allen:
What I wanted to do in the book is not just critique social justice. I wanted people to understand it clearly as I could convey. This is not an academic book, it’s for lay Christians who are trying to get their heads around this. It’s so prominent in the culture. I tried to lay out what this worldview of social justice is but wanted to do it by comparing to biblical understandings of justice. I believe what you are dealing with here is a counterfeit justice. You identify counterfeit by having a deep awareness of the original genuine article. I wanted to remind Christians what biblical justice looks like. I then go on to an examination of social justice. I look at how from a worldview standpoint, it compares with the biblical worldview. Its view of reality, life, existence identity etc. From there I turn the corner and look at how this is affecting the church and begin to raise the alarms of how deeply its coming into the evangelical church. Then I talk briefly about how Christians in my view have heroically stood up and spoken out against it. The only concern that I have about some of the voices that are speaking out against this is the potential mistake in saying that justice and compassion aren’t that important for Christians. What we really need to focus on is Gospel salvation, church planting, getting people to heaven. Pitting that against these other things like concern for the poor and oppressed. That’s not going to help us. Those are very important things we need to be concerned about. What we need to do is redeem these concepts from this nonbiblical cultural distortion and return to our biblical roots and understanding of justice and compassion and how we as Christians go about caring for the poor etc.
Zaspel:
When it comes to caring for the poor, is that a category mistake to call it social justice? Shouldn’t we be calling it charity or something along those lines?
Allen:
That could be the case. There is a long history of social justice in the church. For many, especially when I was growing up, social justice just meant caring for the poor. That term has taken on so much more meaning. I strongly encourage Christians not to use that phrase anymore because it means something specific and definite in the culture. We can’t let go of the word justice, it’s a biblical word we have to fight for. The phrase social justice causes confusion. It’s an ideology and has nothing about caring for the poor.
Zaspel:
We’re talking to Scott Allen about his important new book, Why Social Justice Is Not Biblical Justice: An Urgent Appeal to Fellow Christians in a Time of Social Crisis. It’s timely, it’s well-informed, and it’s a needed cultural exposé for Christians. Get a copy, and learn what’s going on in the world around us.
Scott, thank so much for your faithful work, and thanks for talking to us today.
Allen:
Thank you, Fred!
