An Author Interview from Books At a Glance
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Greetings, I’m Fred Zaspel, and welcome to another Author Interview here at Books At a Glance.
Today we’re talking about a kind of evangelistic apologetics you’ve probably never heard addressed before. Kyle Beshears is with us to talk about his new book, Apatheism: How We Share When They Don’t Care.
Kyle, welcome, and congratulations on a unique book!
Beshears:
Thank you for having me, Fred.
Zaspel:
I think you may be the first to fill this particular niche – tell us what “apatheism” is and what your book is all about.
Beshears:
The word itself is apathy and theism put together. You can surmise from that word alone that we are talking about disinterest and belief in God. I would go even further to say disinterest in questions related to God, his existence, character, and work. This is something I believe is unique in the history of the Church. We could get into the cultural reasons of why that might be, but apathy is different than the secular views that we might instinctively want to pair it up with like atheism and agnosticism. Atheism is the belief God does not exist. Agnosticism is the belief that we do not have enough info to verify whether God exists or not. Apatheism is the thought and feeling that his existence is irrelevant. So why even have the conversation about God to begin with?
Zaspel:
This is a very different kind of apologetics book, and you have written on a very popular level. Who is your intended audience?
Beshears:
It was for the popular level. I am hoping that this could be a book that would be used in churches, community groups, and the everyday believer in the pew wondering how they can reach their grandchildren, neighbors, and friends that seem to be indifferent to the Gospel and God in specific.
Zaspel:
The problem of indifference to God is not entirely new. In a sense, it’s the practical atheism that the apostle James confronted in James 4. But even on that score, our culture is quite different from that of James or of most between him and us. So, talk to us about that – culture shift, how contemporary culture is different from previous eras, and some factors about our culture that explain the prevalence of this problem.
Beshears:
Right, practical atheism is as old as the Bible itself. There has been an association of not really caring what God has to say over our life. In Scripture, we receive his authority over our morality and ethics. What is the difference between apathy and practical atheism? They seem synonymous. The difference is where practical atheists may believe God exists and cares about God’s existence what he or she does not care about is God’s authority over their life. They are practical and not actual atheists. An apatheist does not care if God exists at all so of course, they do not care about his authority over their life.
I believe this kind of apathy begins in the enlightenment. There could be types of apatheism that exists in other cultures as well at different points in time. For us in the West, you see it in the enlightenment. John Calvin says, “nobody at all would want to be seen as being completely or entirely indifferent to their religion.” Fast forward 200 years there is a French philosopher who says, “it is more important to not mistake hemlock for parsley than it is to get the question about God right or wrong.” What happened? We would all agree secularism has something to say about that. The idea that God is contestable can lead to it being irrelevant whether or not you believe in him. That does not quite get us to apatheism because atheists care quite a bit about questions related to God. Think of new atheists like Richard Dawkins who have made entire careers surrounding the God question. Of course, they answer it negatively that he does not exist, and religion can be harmful. At least they are interested in talking.
Another factor at play is the diversity of religious talk. Because there are so many options people get tired of hearing about different ideas about God. It is like we have too many options. They drift into apathy. I believe in American culture we are very comfortable. We have an easy life compared to people in the past. I say in the book that we are not really concerned about where our food comes from, we do not pray to God that we have a good harvest even though we should. I am more concerned about the menial things.
Alan Noble wrote a book called Destructive Witness. He really turned me on to the idea that we are so distracted because of technology that we have all these tasks that come at us all the time. Whether it is keeping up with the news our careers, hobbies, or lifestyles. All these things have spread our attention out that when Scripture bids us come and meditate on something as big as God we do not feel we have the time. For a lot of people coming to Scripture to learn about God is such a foreign and strange thing. Why would you spend time in a book that was written 1000s of years ago when we can just Google everything. One product of all of this is apathy. God is irrelevant to me so why should I care about him.
Zaspel:
So, we might say broadly on a philosophical level that modernist skepticism gives way to postmodern pluralism, and pluralism, in turn, paved the way to apatheism. But there is more to the picture – our cushy lives filled with comforts and amusements. Add it all together, and concerns about God become marginalized.
Beshears:
Orthodoxy or the belief in God in the West for centuries was Christianity. The God of Scripture was central to everyone. Even if you did not want it to be, it was inescapable. To think the God of Scripture did not exist would be as strange to people centuries ago as for today to think leprechauns live on Mars. How could you not believe in God? We are so far removed from that kind of worldview. We are being further removed from it as the years march forward. This is one of the reasons I wanted to write the book to name what everyone senses what is in the air, but they cannot quite grasp what it is. We have named it and now we can discuss it. How do we approach apatheism as disciples of Christ who are called into the Great Commission?
Zaspel:
In chapters 4-8 your aim is to offer help so we can engage those who are indifferent. For now, just talk to us about chapters 4-5 and how we can get their attention. Say my neighbor or friend knows I am a Christian but really does not care enough to talk about it. How do we get them to care enough to talk? What do they need first?
Beshears:
So instinctively what we are going to want to rush to very quickly is apologetics. If they are not interested maybe, we can jolt interest with arguments for God’s existence or evidence. All these things are extremely important. But for people that do not care about God’s existence, our typical model of evangelism and apologetics are not going to work as well as we hope. For example, you might start an apologetic conversation by asking, “what do you believe about God?” if they are atheists or agnostics they would say, “I do not really think God exists or we cannot know for sure.” An apatheist is just going to shrug their shoulders and talk about something else. You can try this but if it does not go anywhere what are the steps we need to take?
Culture apologetics is the idea that we communicate the Gospel not primarily as reasonable or rational. We talk about Christianity primarily as desirable. Because it is truth, it satisfies our deepest longings as human beings made in the image and likeness of God. So, this would be more about discussing aesthetic things in culture. What moves you? What brings you joy? Then we would bring the conversation toward the Gospel from there.
In recent decades, one of the primary goals of the apologist has been to present Christianity as reasonable. With apatheism, we need to present it as desirable. Not at the expense of truth and reason. There is a multifaceted approach here. There is no person who does not want a life of fullness and joy. We all seek it in the creation rather than the Creator. Any joy we experience is from the Creator himself. Other joys lead to further unhappiness.
Zaspel:
Okay, let’s take it further. Walk us through chapters 6-7 about engaging the apathetic. Take your time here if you need.
Beshears:
One of the things I caution in the book in detail is since we have named the problem, we want to hash out and have Gospel conversations with the apatheist. We must reexamine our own hearts before we appeal to them with the joy of the Lord. If we do not take to heart the true and lasting joy that is powerful and permanent in the Gospel, it will be hard to convince them they need it. I call readers to reflect on their own hearts first. They live in the same cultural conditions as apatheists do. Has secularism and comfort and distraction affected your own heart? If so, we need to repent as David prayed in Psalm 51.
One model I give is by asking the apatheist what their joy bringers are. Sometimes they ask what brings me joy. I say all those things bring me joy, but they are downstream from God. I move down to the second part of the conversation which is when I press a little bit on their joy bringers. They are finding their ultimate sense of joy in the created order. Even the best things in creation are limited, whereas the Creator is unlimited. For example, if in conversation I find an apatheist finds their greatest joy in the marriage I ask the hard question, “what happens if you came to a point when your marriage ended?” The point of this is not to be mean but to get them to recognize the thing they suppose to being joy is not as powerful or permanent as they think. What is happening is idols are being revealed for what they are.
Once I get through that I try to bring it back to the Gospel. If I lost one of the things that bring me joy I would be sorrowful but I would still have a sense of joy and peace that transcends that. That is when I discuss the Gospel. Christianity is the only faith that makes the audacious claim that joy and sorrow coexist. Even the shape of the cross itself is an icon of joy and sorrow and the dying body of the Lord for whom it was joy that he went to the cross. There is a joy that is a blessing and gift when we surrender to the Lordship of Christ. After a while, you get to questions about God, his character, and nature. I have had great conversations with apatheists who otherwise would not want to talk about God.
Zaspel:
Just briefly, give us a brief overview of your book.
Beshears:
I define apatheism. I suggest four culture conditions in which apatheism flourishes. I present a potential solution for how we might stave off apatheism and how we might engage an apatheist for the sake of the Gospel.
Zaspel:
We are talking to Kyle Beshears about his new book, Apatheism: How We Share When They Don’t Care. It’s not like any other book you’ve read, but it is entirely relevant to all of us. It is a very enjoyable read that will deepen your understanding of our culture and equip you for a better witness for Christ.
Kyle, thanks for your good work, and thanks for talking to us today.
Beshears:
Thank you, Fred.
