An Author Interview from Books At a Glance
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Greetings, I’m Fred Zaspel, and welcome to another Author Interview here on Books At a Glance.
Voddie Baucham is no stranger to our readers at Books At a Glance, and today he is with us to talk about his timely and very important new book, Fault Lines: The Social Justice Movement and Evangelicalism’s Looming Catastrophe.
Voddie, welcome, and congratulations on an excellent and very important book!
Baucham:
Thank you very much. I really appreciate the opportunity to be with you and talk about it.
Zaspel:
Okay, first, your title. “Fault Lines” is the metaphor that in many ways carries your argument – explain that for us, and the catastrophe you see looming over evangelicalism.
Baucham:
Fault lines are the place where earthquakes take place. They have these divisions in the earth where these plates shift and cause catastrophic events. I was born on the San Andreas fault in Los Angeles, and we would have lots of earthquakes. As I look at what is happening in the church today all I can think of is people standing on two sides of a fault that is in the process of shifting. A lot of people think that the subtitle may be a bit much, but I really do see this as catastrophic. Churches, denominations, families, friendships are all being divided. People are losing their jobs. This is catastrophic.
Zaspel:
Let’s define our terms. We are hearing more and more about Critical Race Theory, Critical Social Justice, Intersectionality, and such. Just explain to us briefly what all this means.
Baucham:
I try to do that in the book. I have what is called a fault line. Not just a timeline but I trace these ideas. I go back to Karl Marx and his conflict theory. His understanding of relationships between people was that they should be understood from power dynamics. Later, came the idea of the proletariat have and have nots. Coming from him there was an expectation that the workers of the world would unite and there would be a great uprising. It did not happen in places they expected. Later, there was an Italian Marxist by the name of Antonio Gramsci. He brings the idea of cultural hegemony, the idea that people are being oppressed not just through means of production but through means of culture. He is very interested in the robes of culture. The lawyers, professors, and preachers. Media education and the way those things influenced the masses and kept them in check. Later, you get the Frankfurt school. This is where critical theory comes from. 1830-40s gets started in Frankfurt, Germany. WWII breaks out and it comes to the United States.
Critical theory is sometimes referred to as cultural Marxism. The idea that a culture must be weakened first before the revolution can take place. It was Gramsci who said socialism will usurp Christianity. From Marx to Gramsci to the Frankfurt school, we come to critical theory. It is really based on the assumptions of Marx and Hegel and power dynamics. Critical theory and critical legal studies harken back to this idea of power dynamics and the assumption of power dynamics and oppression. The assumption that you are critiquing something with a view toward breaking down where the power dynamics are being abused and replacing it with something else. Critical legal studies lead to critical race theory. It is the idea of applying specifically to race within the realm of law. Critical race theory is the brainchild of a professor at Harvard law school, Derrick Bell. Coming out of that is the idea of intersectionality. Kimberle Crenshaw was a protégé of Bell’s. She came up with the idea of intersectionality. All of this is not only that people are oppressed within individual groups and with their identities, but they have intersecting experiences of oppression. A black person is oppressed, a black female is doubly oppressed, a black trans female is triple oppressed, and so on. This is a rough sketch of these ideas that I unpack in the book.
Zaspel:
You point out that the word “critical” in Critical Theory is specifically a revolutionary idea and is not tied to any real concept of truth. Explain that for us.
Baucham:
Most critical studies do not hold to the idea of truth. There is no absolute truth according to them. Just the cultural hegemony. We believe in an absolute truth because the powers that be have created a hegemony which is designed to keep them in power and other people oppressed. The idea that we are somehow looking for this objective truth is really outside the realm of critical theory. Especially critical race theory because it rejects classical liberalism and meritocracy. It talks about other ways of knowing.
Zaspel:
Every Christian must favor social justice, but you emphasize that what is today called “social justice” is not the same as a justice biblically defined. Explain that for us.
Baucham:
I go even further and say there is not biblically defined social justice. Social justice is redistributed justice. The idea of social justice is very clearly defined, the literature is clear, it is not justice from man to man. It is understanding that a government is going to look in the society and look for inequities and it will not look to explain why those outcomes are inequitable. It will assume that it is inequitable because of injustice and racism. It will work to redistribute wealth and power. Specifically, power, redistributed based on these dynamics. It is ironic that Christians are talking about social justice because it takes justice outside of the realm of the church and puts it in the realm of the government.
Zaspel:
We hear all the time today that racism is “systemic” in America. I know racism exists, and I suspect it will until the New Heavens and New Earth. But I do not see racism as one-sided, and I do not see it as systemic. Now, I am white – am I missing something? And what should people of every color know about this discussion?
Baucham:
The concept of structural racism is rooted in critical race theory. There are four main tenants of critical race theory. First, that racism is normal and everywhere. Second, the idea of convergence theory, that white people are incapable of righteous actions in race and racism unless their interest converge. Third, a rejection of classical liberalism. Fourth, truth is understood through narrative. This is why for example people talk about elevating minority voices because that is the way we come to truth. The Bible is part of cultural hegemony. In the social justice movement not only is their white privilege but also Christian privilege. Christianity is as problematic as whiteness. These are the principles.
When you talk about systemic racism, we are talking about the critical race concept that racism is normal and everywhere. This is why the 1619 project is so important for critical race theorists. If America is based in our founding in 1776 with the Declaration of Independence then the principles upon which we are built are the principles of the constitution. But if America becomes a nation in 1619 it is a different story. The significance of 1619 is it is when slaves came to America. Everything is racist. It has everything to do with establishing that America is inherently and irreparably racist. Ibram X. Kendi, the father of anti-racism, proposed an amendment to the constitution. Because that is the only way you can deal with this if you understand it from their perspective.
Zaspel:
How is the current social justice movement deepening rather than healing race relations?
Baucham:
First, it makes everything about race. Whenever something happens in the news, we want to know the race the violence is against. It is causing this division because according to critical race theory we must elevate black voices. We must listen to the voice of the oppressed. So, when George Floyd or Breonna Taylor dies, we do not look at the facts of the case. We reject things like objectivity. The different ways of knowing narrative are the ways we access truth. If you want to understand George Floyd and Breonna Taylor listen to the voice of the oppressed. They will tell you what the truth is. Some people are looking at these things and know the facts indicate “x”. others say you are jumping to that conclusion because of white supremacy.
If you really want to understand you need to sit down and listen to the voice of the oppressed, and we will tell you what the truth is. It is inherently divisive. You cannot get there from here. It is unbiblical. The assumption is that white people are oppressors, and they are incapable of righteous actions unless it serves your own interests. The other thing it is doing is people are falling all over themselves to hire black people, listen to black voices, and what it is doing is causing people to look at the accomplishments of minorities with skepticism. The assumption is going to be you did not earn it but that it was given to you.
Zaspel:
In one of your chapters, you deal with false narratives and their consequences. Tell us about that. What are the false narratives you are trying to expose, and how have they contributed to our problem?
Baucham:
The main false narrative is the idea that the police are out there hunting down and killing black men. That is the overarching false narrative. That is the one that proves everything else. We have this idea that inequities exist because of racism. You cannot blame anything other than racism. Robin DeAngelo, in her book, White Fragility, talks about multiple kinds of racism. One of those is aversive racism. This happens when you look at disparity and blame something other than racism for that disparity. For example, if we look at police shootings, the deaths of people at the hands of police. If we look at racial violent crimes among groups and try to explain, that is aversive racism. So, what it does is allows this false narrative to continue.
We know George Floyd’s name. People are saying he was a smoking gun. If you did not believe in racist treatment by police before George Floyd certainly you have to believe in it now. There is a guy named Tony Timpa in Dallas, Texas who was killed in the exact same way. The three officers in Dallas were not arrested or charged. They were back on the streets and remain back on the streets. The video was not released for over a year until the media demanded the video. Tony Timpa’s family has gotten nothing for his death. The reason you do not know his name or story is because he is white, and it does not fit the false narrative.
I have several stories like that in my book. What I try to do is demonstrate this in several ways. One, people argue that the statistical anomalies prove racism. We look at how black people die at the hand of police disproportionally. Do we see these disparities anywhere else? Men die at the hands of police disproportionally. Also, people between the ages of 18 and 45 are killed by police more than people under or over. I look at individual cases. There are a number of mathematical studies that demonstrate that police are less likely to shoot black people than white people. I go through the main stories out there. I demonstrate how in every one of those instances there is a parallel where a white person died the exact same way. Maybe that is true they say, when they kill black people, they get away with it, this is not the case. This all goes back to critical race theory.
Zaspel:
You have several chapters exposing the “religious nature” of the anti-racism movement. Can you just highlight that for us?
Baucham:
It absolutely is a religion. They have their own cosmology. The way the world came to be. White people created whiteness, white supremacy, and white fragility. They have their own saints. Their own understanding of total depravity. When people who were not liturgical are all the sudden doing liturgies of lament. This is a part of the religious nature. The one thing you do not find is any kind of redemption. They have their own law. It is perpetual penance. It is not real repentance because white people are incapable of righteous action in race and racism. You must do the work of anti-racism. You always have to be afraid you are going to do something wrong.
Zaspel:
How else is the social justice movement at war with Christianity?
Baucham:
There is a lot of literature on the social justice movement that clearly points to Christianity as not a problem but the problem. There is a book, Teaching for Diversity and Social Justice. It is a seminal text used in social science training. This book equates Christian privilege with white privilege. It views Christianity the same way that the critical social justice movement views whiteness. It is a cancer that needs to be removed. It is at war with Christianity because the social justice movement is like a train with a bunch of boxcars. Christians are looking at the engine and do not understand conflict theory. Right behind it is the first boxcar and it is called racial justice. Christians are all for justice and hate racism. But right behind that one is the radical feminist boxcar and behind that is the LGBTQ boxcar. Behind that is the climate justice boxcar, and then the open borders boxcar. They are all connected. The secular social justice movement is very clear about the fact that all these things are connected. Christians are the ones who are jumping on this one boxcar as though we can go somewhere and not be trailed by the rest of the boxcars.
Zaspel:
How do you explain the strong attraction to the social justice movement on the part of so many otherwise respected evangelicals?
Baucham:
There are a couple of things going on. We are all about justice and love. We are not racist. Our brothers and sisters in Christ love the body. There are a lot of people and leaders who for decades have committed themselves to racial reconciliation. They have helped trained, mentored, and partnered with black brothers and sisters. Now some of those same brothers they have partnered with are espousing openly or overtly supporting this movement. A lot have decided rather than to burn those bridges, to stay silent, or to give tacit approval of the people while trying not to give approval of the message and ideology. They are trying to do everything they can, not to speak out against those individuals. These movements are latching onto some very real and true things that we hold dear.
Zaspel:
Just broadly, how do we most effectively respond to all this? Talk to us about what you describe in chapter 10 as the “weapons” we have at our disposal.
Baucham:
Paul’s teaching in 2 Corinthians 10 is poignant for this moment in time. We are not wrestling against flesh and blood. We must give examples of good brothers who for one reason or another have begun to espouse these ideologies. We are at war with this ideology, not our brothers. The weapons that we are using are spiritual weapons and not physical weapons. We are not going to war with our words. They are powerful weapons that will destroy strongholds and fortresses. They are the words of the Spirit. What do we do with these weapons? We destroy every argument and lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God. We want to take every thought captive. We do not want to do the first part of destroying the arguments. In order to hold on to those relationships, Christians are not doing this. They are trying to be nice but avoid the finger being pointed at them and being called racist. We must do both. Destroy arguments and take every thought captive. Taking every thought captive, we are not just being negative but also embracing this biblical understanding of what our identity is. We are embracing one race and multiple ethnicities. We are one in Christ. On the idea of race and racism, we must take these thoughts captive about who we are and what our differences mean.
When it comes to justice, we must have a biblical understanding of justice. One of the reasons that Christians are having a hard time with the idea of justice is because we have lost the balance between law and Gospel. We think of the Gospel all the time, but most people do not know the ten commandments anymore. We forget how they serve as a foundation for ethics and understanding justice and righteousness. The Westminster Larger Catechism is amazing on this. It gives us the pattern of what the commandment is, what is forbidden, and what is required. That is how we understand justice, and what the commandments of God are. What do they forbid and require? That is how we get to justice. Instead of looking at what justice is, people are getting off track. They have a wrong definition of injustice. If injustice is disparate outcomes, then justice has nothing to do with the law of God and has everything to do with the law of man. That is why we are having these conversations where we are talking past one another. If disparities are what we are trying to fix, you do not go to the Decalogue.
Zaspel:
Give us a brief overview of your book.
Baucham:
I start with that thought line. Quickly, I give people an understanding of these ideas we have been talking about. There are a couple of chapters about me. Chapter one, a black man, where I come from. Chapter two, a black Christian, my conversion and how I had to begin to think differently. I was as pro-black as anybody you have ever known. I was a new Christian wearing t-shirts with Malcom X on them. I started the black student fellowship at Houston University. In the middle, I talk about a new religion, a new priesthood, and a new canon. I try to outline this movement in these ways. There are articles about the anti-racist curriculum that white people need. I look at the damage and aftershock. We look at what is going and what is at stake. What are the things we are seeing?
I close with the whole idea of where we go from here. Then there is the last chapter where I talk about the most powerful tool in all of this. The tool of forgiveness. I tell the story of my first trip to Zambia. I had to wrestle with the fact of being back in Africa where our history started. Recognizing the providence of God and how multiple generations later, he allowed me to be raised in the history of the greatest country in the world. I got the best theological education, and get to come back and make a deposit in this land that my ancestors were taken from. That is where I try to bring all this together at the end of the book.
Zaspel:
We are talking to Voddie Baucham about his very important new book, Fault Lines: The Social Justice Movement and Evangelicalism’s Looming Catastrophe. It is a needed contribution to a very contemporary discussion, and I hope it will become an immediate best-seller – please, buy a copy for yourself and three more for your friends, and all of you read it and discuss it together.
Voddie, thanks for your faithful work, and thanks much for talking to us today.
Baucham:
God bless you, Fred. My pleasure. Thank you for having me.
